Ed Harrold and Jonathan Foust explore remembering the breath as an accessible anchor for meditation, presence, and daily practice.
Ed Harrold with Jonathan Foust. Originally published on YouTube November 18, 2021. Watch the original conversation on YouTube.
Ed Harrold and Jonathan Foust explore remembering the breath as an accessible anchor for meditation, presence, and daily practice.
00:03.7 Hello again, friends. Welcome to our Life with Breath expert series. Today we have an amazing mentor of myself and a mentor to many human beings who is an authentic practitioner of deep meditation practice. We have the amazing Jonathan Foust with us. Welcome. Hello again, friends. And as we always begin these hours, let's take a little time to just connect with our breath, calm the nervous system, open the mind, open the heart, and then we can fully receive the information from our guest. So if you can, just let your eyes close. Release and relax your low jaw, your mouth. Let go of any tension you might be aware of around the shoulders, upper chest.
01:16.5 And then shift your mental awareness in a relaxed way to the ingoing flow of energy coming in and out through your nostrils. And as you begin to breathe slower, if your breath could speak to you in this moment right now, what is it offering you? You might notice that the pace of your breath is closely linked to the pace of the movie you're watching in your mind. And in that movie, you are the star, you are the director, and you are the audience. For those of you familiar with the ocean sounding breath, the Ujjayi breathing technique, maybe bringing up a sound in the throat to
02:40.1 anchor the mind, to tether the mind in the beauty of your heart, the beauty of your spine. Just allow a few brief moments of introversion. And as you slow that inhale, stettle the-- steady the mental activity. And as you lengthen that exhale, release any old tension or distractions that might be inhibiting the mind's ability to focus. If this is comfortable for you and you would enjoy maybe a little deeper experience, I invite you to hold the breath in and out for a couple seconds after the inhale is complete and after the exhale is complete. And then for the last minute, maybe breathing a little slower.
04:54.0 Maybe allowing a little longer breath retention after the inhale is complete, and allow that expansiveness to move through any parts of the mind where we sense contraction or aversion. Choosing to learn our life lessons through authenticity and gratitude and love. Jonathan, do you want to take it from here? Sure. Let's continue the meditation. We'll shift to a master meditation teacher. Thank you, Jonathan. So we'll take a few minutes now. You might like to suspend all control of your breath now. And feel the breath absolutely unrestricted and free-flowing. And you might notice where you feel the breath the most predominant. And for these next few moments, sense if you can just simply track what the breath feels like
06:44.6 on the inside. And is it possible to, to feel your breath, but also to be aware of the periphery, the fact that you are aware of your breath? As the meditation master Thich Nhat Hanh offers, "As I breathe in, I'm aware of breathing in. As I breathe out, I am aware of breathing out." And you might notice, as you feel the breath in the foreground, you might notice if it's possible to expand your awareness to the background. Aware of everything that's moving and shifting and changing, and sensing what some traditions call taking the seat of the witness. Non-judging, non-preferential awareness. Allowing things to be just as they are.
08:09.2 And in this final minute, you might inquire, is there anything right now that could soften or relax or let go? And is there anything that could soften, relax, or let go even more? And now you might very gently, again, sense the breath from the inside, and, and notice what happens if you lengthen the breath just a little bit. Softening on the out breath, and just noting the quality of presence, noting what may have shifted in these last minutes of turning your awareness inward. And then you might, in your own time... With your eyes closed, let your head drift a little bit to the left and the right.
09:34.6 You're sensing the movement from the inside. You might like to reach your arms up overhead. One of my favorite state changing practices is to imagine you're in a TV commercial smiling like they do when they wake up in the morning. Love it. And when you're ready, you can open your eyes. I love it. That was great. Thank you so much for taking out the time, uh, and, and running so skillfully. Well, you know, it just reminded me so much of our, you know, our years in the ashram of, you know, all the different breathing techniques, you know, we used and how profound they are for shifting our states.
10:21.9 That's juicy. You k- you know, for me, about 25 years ago when we first met, I, I had no awareness about movement or focusing the mind or, or controlling my breath. And, and being kind of an energy junkie, the first thing I noticed about the breath was that it, it brought me into my body right away. Like I was in this present moment, maybe not in the best mental state, but I was at least feeling like I was getting somewhere, if there's any place even to go. But it felt like improvement from where I was prior to that in my life. When you first got start ...
11:11.5 I mean, your history goes way back. When you first got started in the ashram, were you attracted immediately to meditation? 'Cause I've seen you do asana before, and you can rip. But were you attracted immediately to the mind? I was. My, my initial attraction was meditation. I ... You know, when I moved in the ashram, I think I just finished up, I was in the Peace Corps, and I just stumbled in for the day, you know, stayed for 24 years. But I remember being so embodied, you know, that I realized that those first 25 years of my life, I was pretty convinced the only reason I had a body was to make my head portable, you know?
11:57.3 And then realizing like the body's the doorway, you know, and, and the breath is the doorway. And I learned, uh ... When I was 15 ... I was raised a Quaker, so, uh, you know, the, the Quakers talk about the still small voice within, and I thought, "Well, that sounds interesting," but I never got the technology of how to tap into that. Mm-hmm. And then I learned transcendental meditation when I was 15. It was like- Mm-hmm ... from, from the first moment, it was like, "I'm gonna be doing this for the rest of my life." And so far, you know, I have. So my attraction was meditation, but then the discovery of, of, of asana, you know, of like purifying the body and strengthening the body mindfully, m-
12:40.3 but then th- th- for doing pranayama and realizing, "Oh my gosh," you know? "How I breathe is how I feel." And of course, back in those days, we really pushed the limits, you know? Um, doing lots of, lots of just- Yeah ... pretty insane, you know, pranayama techniques. I remember the first ... I, I just felt home, even though I, I didn't know where I was going. But I had complete trust i- in you to guide this 10-day retreat, and the, and the, and the part that trusted it was much more powerful than the part that didn't know where I was going. And the f- and just your whole thing resonated with me, just the authenticity, the depth of practice,
13:42.2 the communication of how to teach and hold space for others. And it just ... You know, my whole thing was I would look up at you and I'd be like, "Maybe someday if I'm really lucky and work for it, I can do this." Mm. That was my take on that. Wow. That's very, that's very sweet. You know, I think ... You know, there's a definition that I like of your, your path or your dharma, you know? Mm-hmm. The word dharma is thrown around a lot and, you know, it can mean like eternal truth, but it al- also can mean path. And, and the definition I like is y- your personal path or your personal dharma is what you can't not do, you
14:29.7 know? And for me, like when I, when I had that, the, the, that initial experience with like this, there's something here about, about coming home and- Mm-hmm ... and being able to be in a safe and sacred space to do the practices, um, was so, so, um ... It was just such a blessing and such a gift and, and I, and I just ... And I know how, you know, the power of the resonance for you, you know? Very much a shared- Yeah ... a shared space of, of inquiry. Well, I ... You know, I was there to learn, but I was also watching you like a hawk, and your body language.
15:13.3 And there would be f- you know, at the end of a session, there'd be 20 people that wanted to talk to you, and you would look every person in the eye like this was the only person on the planet, and you would patiently have interaction with them. And then the next person, you would look them directly in the eye as if they were the only person on the earth. And that level of authenticity and depth and just, like, making you feel so amazing, I, I'll never forget watching you interact with large groups. Wow. Wow, that's, that's so kind. As- to- thank you for that, for that reflection.
15:56.7 You know, for me, I think I was just so feeling so blessed to be able to, to, to share in these practices. We were sharing before the podcast, a, a mutual friend of ours, old flea-bitten ashramite, who, who once said that his goal was to practice deeply and share freely. And I wanna... When he told me that, I thought, "I am so taking that phrase." And, um, and I, it's, it's just the best game in town, you know? It really is the best game in town. When, when we're around like-minded people who want the same thing, um, it's, it's, as we used to say back in those days, company is stronger than willpower.
16:38.0 Stronger than- And it really, really did make a difference. So you're an accomplished musician, writer, meditation teacher. You've worked all over the world. Is there one thing that people don't know about? I mean, I, I know something about you that maybe others don't know. You're the world's greatest stand-up comedian. Oh, I so wish. And that... I, I just think that, like, I get it, the work is serious. You can go to any level you, you choose to go. But at the same time, it doesn't always have to be white-knuckle, you know, with your foot on the brake, and you're got the wheels gripped so tight, and you have to get it.
17:21.4 You know, you gave us freedom to have our own experience. You know, um, I'm just reminded of how, um, the, in, in the ashram, the Kripalu Yoga Ashram, the- Mm-hmm ... it was named after Swami Kripalu. And for those who are not familiar with him, he was the real deal. He, he, he, uh, he died before, just before I moved in. Um, but he was, uh, you know, someone who practiced meditation for, you know, I think it was 10 hours a day. He was in silence for 19 years. Mm-hmm. And, and he had this one phrase that I, again, I heard this, I thought, "I am, like, etching that on the inside of my eyelids." He said, he said, "Seriousness is a crime
18:07.5 in the court of God." Mm-hmm. And it's like, and that's when I just thought, "We have to be able to... We gotta take this lightly," you know? Um- Mm-hmm ... because practice is so much around paradox, you know? And, you know, we, we try so hard, it gets so grim, and ultimately it's about letting go, and, and integrating all this stuff is really all we can do. All we can really do is laugh, I think, ultimately. You know, ultimately. Where did you get that sense of humor? Is that from your mom, your dad? Like, would you pick... Were you born like that, or is it something you developed?
18:45.2 I mean- Uh, it was the only way I... It was the only way I could get attention- ... in, in my, in my household. And my father was just killer. Uh, he, he had such a subtle wit, and he would, like, he would just do these little side comments and wait to see if you'd catch it. And, um- Uh, you know, and I remember he would, he would have people come up to him two days later and say, "Hey, I just, I just realized what you said. I got... I want you to know I got it." You know, so that was my way of getting attention.
19:15.1 And, um, but also, you know, humor is a way that it just brings us all together. You know, when a, when a, when a group laughs together, there's such a sense of, you know, harmony. And, and so the, you know, the shadow side was, you know, I would ex- sort of... In my, my family, with my own family dys- dysfunction, I would try to use humor to, you know, to kinda like heal things, which maybe wasn't the most skillful thing, but it's, it's what I did and what I tried. It worked. No, it's great. Still working. I'm, I'm really glad to hear it. And I can...
20:01.6 I, I think about when I was younger, uh, you know, there, there really wasn't a word called stress. There was either de-stress or distress. It was D-I or D-E, and it was, you had that in front of stress. And then somewhere about 25 years ago, we threw out the D-I or the D-E, and now it's just stress. And you can't even really find online a lotta information about de-stress. It's always distress or stress. The one tool that I, that I see that crosses lines that, that works for everyone is meditation. How can we, how can we access the gifts of meditation with the languaging that we have today, which so much of it is, it's a loaded magnetic frequency?
21:04.1 It really is. You know, my, my dad, um, served in World War II, was wounded twice, missing in action. Um- Mm ... just, I mean, the stuff he saw, um, uh, um, was really h- horrendous. When he came back, no acknowledgement. You know, it was just get back to work. And when you think about how the refinement we, the understanding we have now around post-traumatic stress disorder and- Yeah ... and the technologies that we are, uh, we're beginning to uncover, you know, as Jean Houston ta- She, back in like in the '70s, she said, "The, we will have the discovery of ancient future technologies." I thought, "That sounds exciting, but what the heck is that?" And you know what it is?
21:51.5 Right. It's the work you're doing, you know? Here these, these- Mm-hmm ... ancient technologies of, of learning how to regulate, you know, through breath, learning how to, you know, uh, learning how to kind of subdue the amygdala and stimulate the prefrontal cortex, you know. All this stuff that we now have access to is, it's extraordinary. Um, I do a lot of work, uh, with, with CEOs, um, you know, uh, 'cause I'm here in DC. Um, my wife and I have done multiple presentations- Mm-hmm ... for the Senate, the, in the, um, the House of Representatives. Um, I did a training for the DC Superior Court Justices.
22:32.5 And what I find so interesting now is that people are really beginning to understand the consequences of stress, and, and are very open, more open than ever into learning, learning how to work with it. So it's a very interesting thing. You know, we're, the, it's getting so much more, um, nuanced as we go along here. It's really, really quite exciting. So I'm aware you're, uh, you're frozen right now on my screen, or you're being very, very still and very meditative. So I'll just pause for a moment, see how our connection is. Um, so it's me. Uh, looks like we've lost Ed. So I may be the show here.
23:30.6 Um, so until Ed comes back, uh, I can talk a little bit more around, uh, or maybe, uh, there are a couple things around breath and meditation that I thought I might share. Um, I learned mantra meditation. Um, of course we did a lot of breath i- as, as the, um, in the form of yoga as well. Uh, but I then became very influenced by working with, um, in the Buddhist tradition, uh, mindfulness meditation, which uses breath kind of as the primary anchor. Uh, of course other breaths, uh, I mean, other techniques are entirely possible. You can use sound as an, as an anchor, as a way of coming back.
24:14.8 You can use the, the feeling tone in your body as a way of coming back. But primarily, the breath becomes your doorway to really open and feel what's present. And so there are a couple ways you can work with the breath, and, uh, maybe until, uh, until Ed comes back to join me, I can tell you a little bit about that. You may have, you may have explored how manipulating your breath can have very, very profound effect. You know, when you, when you slow down the breath, you begin to calm the nervous system, and as they say, the slower you go, the more you notice.
24:55.7 So consciously slowing down your breath can be a very powerful way to kind of gather your attention. And in that way of, of e- of exploring mindfulness meditation, you can use the breath as your way of coming back. I- i- in the Buddhist tradition, the breath is referred to as, um, in Pali, the original language of the Buddha, as anapanasati. The word anapana means breath. The word sati means remember. And that becomes a very critical, a critical word in meditation. Technical glitches. Hey, there you are. That was amazing. So you're, uh, you're f- you're freezing a little bit again, but, um, shall we carry on?
25:51.8 I would love that. Yeah, so wh- while you were away, I was talking a little bit about, um, about using breath, uh, as an anchor in meditation. Talking about what's referred to as anapanasati, which is really basically remembering the breath and how, and how powerful that can be. Hoo. And it works on the fly, too. Yes, it does. It does. When you're, uh, leading the Monday night experiences online, you know, a few years ago there really wasn't any online experiences. It was all face-to-face, retreat centered, one-on-ones. And you seem to make a seamless transition in the holding space for folks, uh, on your Monday night programs.
26:44.9 It's so powerful and, and kudos to you because you made that step from face-to-face to virtual. It... I don't know how it was for you, but for the audience, amazing. You know, it was, it was a, a bit of a, a bit of a leap, but I'm so glad that I've had so many years of experience of giving live talks so that I could just sort of imagine people. You know, that, that Monday night class was, uh, was a pretty good sized, uh, group, and I would just sort of imagine them there and, um... And it's, it's funny, you know, since things have gone online and w- when w- we lead a lot of meditation retreats as well, you know, paradoxically, I'm sure you've found this as well,
27:28.8 that, um, it's more accessible for people now. Um, you know, on our retreats, they're now, they're now international retreats. We have people from all over the world, and lots of people who are taking care of elderly parents or who are, who have disabilities who can now fully participate. So that really has been kind of the golden gift, you know, through the whole, this whole process with the pandemic. Yeah. Y- you know, finding the silver lining in distress or aversion, you know, knowing that there's always a sliver of light somewhere in that, in that, whatever that is, and just hanging in there with the experience, you know, one breath at a time and,
28:17.0 you know, trusting our experience. It seems like there... It's almost like we're, we've lost our ability to trust ourselves and folks around us. Yeah. And it's, you know, th- there's a, a beautiful cont- uh, sort of concept in, in practice that's called verified trust or verified faith. Mm-hmm. You know, that when we, when we hit a rough spot and we, we kind of like, we, we pause and we kind of refresh and, you know, the... I sometimes when, when I hit a rough thing, I sometimes try to remember that question, what could be great about this? And just that one question, like, what could be great about this, is a reframe, you know?
29:08.2 Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think w- what happens for me is like I've be- begun to see that I used to think that in my meditation practice that it was about getting to peace, you know? And so whenever I hit any of those five mental states of, you know, of, of aversion or craving or restlessness or worry or sloth and torpor or doubt, it'd be like I gotta burn through that state to get back to peace. And I've finally realized manage- going through those states is the practice, you know? Right. Managing, managing those, those challenges as they arise, that's what the practice is all about.
29:45.4 And I think the verified tra- trust or verified faith comes when we, when we stay, when we stay with it and we build that sense of resilience. I- is this something that, that folks are born with, or is it something that's cultivated through discipline, or is it somewhat of a middle path? It's a... Wow, that's such a great question, you know? Because, you know, what I find, and I think... You know, again, when I think back to our roots, you know, back, back in the ashram days, we were very into willful practice, you know? Willful practice was, you know, was the name of the game, you know.
30:24.9 Going at a very strong asana, pushing the limits with pranayama and really using a lot of concentration and... At the same time, we did some very powerful surrender practices as well, you know, with the, the posture flows and things like that. Mm-hmm. But, but what I find is that it's really about finding that balance. You know, there's a story of, um, someone who goes to their meditation teacher and says, uh, "By the way, I just want you to know I quit." And the, and the teacher says, "I'm curious why?" And she says, "Well, you've- you're so inconsistent. You know, you're telling one person to sit up straighter, and then the next person comes up, you're telling them to go for more walks and have tea.
31:05.1 You know, I can't stand how, uh, how, um, undependable you are." Right. And the, and the teacher smiles and says, "Well, what I'm really teaching is, is the middle way." Mm-hmm. And for some people, they need to sit up straighter- Sure ... and other people need to learn how to soften. And, and my thing is, we have that inner knowing, you know, that, that self-regulatory thing when we realize like, "You know what? I'm being too grim." You know? Right. "I, I have to fi- what are the tools that are gonna help me to soften and trust more?" And then we also have the inner knowing of like, "You know what?
31:41.8 I could sit up a little straighter." You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. "I could benefit from, from some discipline here." And you know, that, that middle way, it's a, it's a constantly moving target. Right. Which is why, you know, I, I think it all comes down to two questions, which is, what exactly is happening right now, and how does this moment want me to be with it? You know, and then to listen really deeply. You know, I listen to your phrasing, your linguistics, the words. How important is it to monitor the phrasing that we're using internally moment by moment to improve our, our, our mental communication skills?
32:30.5 M- as a, as a teacher or as a... I just look at the fact that sometimes we just let the mind just be like a run-on sentence, and we don't really pay attention to the words, the inflection, what the words might mean, and we're just letting the mind do its thing. Then there's the other way of we're on the other end of the seesaw, where we're looking at every syllable and how does that vibrate, uh, in my mind. And there's this, I think there's a space in between based on our, our level of interest at any given moment where we either monitor the mind and,
33:11.5 or we don't monitor the mind and we just observe and witness. Yeah. Well, to, to quote again Swami Kripalu, uh, he had a great line. He said, "Consider the next thing you're about to say, and ask yourself if it's an improvement on silence." Yeah. Yeah. And that slows me down really, really fast. You know? Yeah. And I certainly notice that for myself, is like when, you know, being, just being mindful of speech, you know, that when I'm, when I'm speaking from a place of stress and when I'm speaking from a place of ease, you know. And that's where I love that thing around it's like the thing about mindfulness is this, is being aware of what's happening as it's happening.
33:56.3 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, that's the first part of the definition. And the second part of the definition is to be aware of your relationship to what's happening. Right. Right. And to me, like, that's just so, it's so exquisite, you know, 'cause that's, that's where we're, we're self-monitoring, you know, when we can realize like, "Oh, I'm, my actions are coming. There's some strain here. There's some grasping or there's some aversion." And that- Well- ... that's where that self-regulatory thing comes in. Yeah, you know, I, I've, I've noticed you through the years, and one of the things I, I really appreciate is your efficiency. You know, there's nothing wasted Nothing needs to be added.
34:37.7 There's no extra steps, and there's a conservative approach to the energy where we're not just spewing energy out or, you know, just to be heard. And I, I think that it, it... Either you're efficient in your life in physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or, or you're not efficient. And when I, when I see you, uh, run a program, there's an economy or an efficiency to the energy used that on the other end of the seesaw immediately creates more self-awareness. Mm-hmm. Mm. That's cool. That's cool. You know, it, it's said that like there, there are two basic styles- Mm-hmm ... in, in, in guiding. One, one is directive- Mm-hmm ...
35:24.0 you know, which is like, "Close your eyes." Mm-hmm. And the other one is invitational, which is like, "If you, if you, uh, if you like"- Yeah ... "or if it feels right, close your eyes." Mm-hmm. And I hate being told what to do. Yeah. I, I just, I just hate it. So my style is 100% invitational. And- Sure ... and, uh, and, and, you know, people make fun of that sometimes, you know? Where, you know, I, I've heard some pretty intense, uh, pretty intense, uh, um, skits done on my, on my style of leading. But, uh, my, my, um, my sense is like we, we have an invitation, we move in.
36:03.6 And I'm, I'm very informed by, you know, while my roots are in yoga- Mm-hmm ... um, I've been very influenced by, you know, by Buddhist philosophy and Buddhist psychology. And I have no reason to call myself, you know, a, a Buddhist or a yogi or whatever, but, but allegedly in all of this... Everything the Buddha said is allegedly because it wasn't written down till generations later. But he allegedly said on his, on his deathbed, "Be a light unto yourself." Mm. "Do not look for teachers, do not look for books, do not look for scripture to tell you what is true." Mm-hmm. And, and, and he said, "No one is gonna save you.
36:45.5 You have to take responsibility for your own awakening," if you will. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When I first heard that, it was like, "Oh, man, I was really hoping someone would save me." Um, but it's like we have to take responsibility a- and that's where I think like that, that invitational style is, it's so, so powerful. 'Cause with all that you are offering out into the world, you know, you're offering it freely, and then people really have to try it on for themselves, and, um, I find that so powerful. You've been involved in a lot of research in regards to meditation and meditation practice, and the gifts of the practice.
37:26.8 What is one thing in the research that's coming out today that you knew intuitively 30-some years ago? Wow, what a great question. What a great question. I- in essence, uh, it works. You just know it. Yeah, you just know it. It's, it's, it... There's just a resonance. It's like, you know, when, when you... It's Em- R- uh, Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "When someone experiences the truth-" never forget it. They'll try, but they'll never forget it. And, and what I love about all the years of, you know, being in the ashram and teaching and the however many decades it's been since then, you know, I find that when, when, when we create these experiences where people can come into an authentic experience of themself, that's when they say, "Oh, now
38:31.3 I get what my rabbi was talking about." Yeah. You know? Or like, "Oh, so that's what that, that's what that teaching of, of Christ is all about." You know? It's, uh, it's, it's like that, that eternal sense of truth that we tap into, uh, that, that I find it's so thrilling. Mm. And so it's really, it's given me a lot of confidence, you know, to be able to go in and, i- in front of a bunch of executives and to offer these experiences, um, because I just, I just have deep, deep faith that they, that they work. And, and part of it, you know, I, I was contacted by the, um, um, the National Security Council to do some, uh- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ...
39:12.4 to do a presentation. And, um- Congratulations ... this is when, uh, Lieutenant General, uh, McMaster was running it- Mm-hmm ... um, for the two weeks he was in charge. Um, and, uh, so they said, "Well, uh, Lieutenant General McMaster signs off on, on all the training, so he wants a one-pager from you." So I thought, "Oh my God, I gotta put together a one-pager for a lieutenant journal, a general?" And so I thought, "Well, let me, well, let me just see what the military has done." And so I did a bunch of, you know, just googling for research, and I c- was blown away by how much research has been
39:53.1 done by the government on the effect of mindfulness and troop cohesion and leadership. And so my one-pager was like, "Well, you might wanna check out these articles," you know, and it was, you know, it was instantly approved. So- Congratulations ... you know, having the science, that, that's why this practice is being underwritten by insurance companies, it's why it's being taught in the schools, because now we have this evidence-based proof that, that these practices will not only, uh, help you regulate your nervous system, but they'll give you more emotional equilibrium, more mental clarity, your sense of intuition gets heightened. It really does. As, uh, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi had this one phrase, it's so cliche, and I, I just keep coming back to it.
40:43.5 It's so corny. He would j- he would say, "Water the root and enjoy the fruit." Right. And it's really true. It's really true. Yeah, I truly believe that we are all farmers in the deepest sense of the word, where we're all leaving seeds behind us, and we're just trying to leave a, you know, a, a better field than how we found it. And, you know, I believe meditation practice is, is one of the really roots where we can have an appreciation that it's really not all about us. It's kind of like the bounty of the work that we're putting out there. And, you know, one of the great things that I find about meditation is, you know, when everything's going well in life and you're having a great day, it's very easy to focus your attention.
41:28.2 We're very habit-driven b- organisms. When we're having those rainy days, those days that we would prefer not be involved in, where we actually have the greatest opportunity to learn when the sun's not out, but I, I, I notice meditation gives us the ability to pull ourselves back to neutral on the days that we would classically in our egos say that would be unpleasant or unfruitful. What is your experience with that? Yeah. Well, one of the jokes I tell is how when you meditate, you'll feel better, and most people do. But you'll also feel your depression better, your sadness better, your anger better. You know, you feel everything better.
42:18.9 And I think what happens for many people is they start off with a meditation practice, and you kinda pick the low-hanging fruit, you know? You kinda realize like, "Oh my gosh, you know, I f- I feel so much better. I can't believe I was holding onto that issue." And then what happens is, when you practice, and, and again, when you think of like that, that seat of the witness, non-judging awareness, like non-preferential awareness, what happens as you go deeper into your practice is that everything undigested in your life, everything unfelt and unseen in your life is gonna make its way into center stage. So, so again, um, like, boy, I keep going back to Swami Kripalu.
43:02.3 He had some great stuff, but he said, "Most people stop practicing precisely because it's working." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so meditation has this great way of self-regulation, you know? But also, it's, it can be a... it's also a practice of, of transformation. Yeah. You know? So, and that's where, where the, the tools of practice, uh, become very, very powerful. Like, how do you work with physical pain? How do you work with emotional turmoil? How do you work with mental agitation? Um, so the model that, one of the mindfulness models that I love, um, is the practice called RAIN, R-A-I-N. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where you rec- you recognize what's presenting, you name it, and sometimes naming it, y- as they say in the shamanic traditions, you know, if you can name a fear, you take its power
43:52.6 away. Mm-hmm. I'm not sure you take it all away, but you do sort of sever your identification with it. The A is to ask, "Can I, can I allow this?" Sometimes you can't. But if you can in meditation, okay, let me make room for this physical pain or this emotional trauma or emotional turmoil. Mm-hmm. If you can, then you move into the I, which is to investigate. Mm-hmm So where do I feel that inside? What am I believing about this? Mm-hmm. And then the N is you, whatever you find, you explore what it's like to nurture that with some kind of kindness or compassion or, or loving awareness,
44:29.0 and this is where meditation becomes really powerful for a kind of unwinding the knots that, that show up in life. Um- Well said ... it's juicy stuff. Okay. It's really juicy stuff. So, you know, when I hear you speak and I think of meditation- ... people think of the brain, and we think of thought forms and, uh, cognition. What I'm hearing today is that meditation is a feeling experience more than a classical stop these thoughts, or I don't wanna go into these words. It's about feeling. Very much feeling, and it gets, it gets so overlooked. Uh, here's a model that I really like. A- any given moment, the very, very foundation of what you're aware of is energy.
45:26.7 It's just, it's just, yeah, undifferentiated, undifferentiated energy, you know? It's, you know, prana, chi, qi, Holy Spirit, whatever you wanna call it. Right. And then, then what happens is in a flash before you're even aware of it, your mind classifies that sensation as either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Right. And then without even being aware of it, you go into a mental reactivity. Mm-hmm. Oh, I really, oh, I really like this. Ooh, this is terrible. This reminds me of that time when I was X, Y, Z. Mm-hmm. So then, then you're caught in the thoughts. If you're not aware of your thoughts, and you think the same thought a thousand times, it calcifies into a belief.
46:08.3 And if you're not aware of your beliefs, they become your habits. And if you're not aware of your habits, they form your character. And if you're not aware of your character, that becomes your destiny. Mm. So that's why in meditation you come back to the breath, you come back to the, you come back to the here and now before that stuff proliferates. So you can pay attention, you can lo- you can examine your beliefs, you can examine your habits, you can examine your thoughts, but you can also explore this feeling tone- Mm ... which is incredibly rich. There's one meditation teacher, his name is U Tejania.
46:44.8 Mm. If you sit with him, the who- it'll be like for a week. He doesn't tell you whether do walking meditation or sitting meditation. You do that however you want, but what you do is 24/7, you pay attention to pleasant and unpleasant and the reaction in your mind. Mm-hmm. Really powerful. So you're, you're just noticing the feeling tone, and then noticing how you're reacting to it. It's really quite, quite, uh, revealing. So if I was under- going to undertake a meditation practice, what would be some of the steps that I would wanna first look into to start a practice? I mean, do I do it every day?
47:29.3 Do I do it for an hour? Uh, do I focus on my breath? Uh, you know, what are the early steps for folks that just dip their toe into this ki- communication skill. Yeah. Well, it's important to point out that, uh, I love this book by Jason Siff called Unlearning Meditation, and he has one statement which I thought, "That's so screwed up," and then I realized, "Oh my God, that's so true." He said, "You can l- " He said, "You can learn any meditation technique and find another tradition that will give you exactly the opposite instructions." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you, you know, in insight meditation you close your eyes.
48:08.1 If you study Tibetan meditation, you meditate with your eyes open, you know? In some traditions you'll use a mantra. Other traditions you use breath. Some traditions you use sound. So I think it's very important to look at the different traditions and to kinda sense what resonates for you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, but in essence, I like to think of meditation as three stages. Mm-hmm. I- it- and think of it as focus, flow, and let go. So focus is concentration, and we all need concentration, you know, so the breath or sound or whatever it may be. Training yourself to gather your attention in the here and now is very, very helpful.
48:49.6 And then flow is that sense of like, of like really being the witness of your experience and noticing the stream of what's passing by. And then letting go is really just sensing, "Can I let things be as they are?" So I think it's really helpful. There's really great training, trainings available out there. Um, in fact, I- I'll just mention my, my wife is, who's a meditation teacher, psychologist, kind of meditation rock star, uh, Tara- What's her name again? Uh, Tara Brach. Um, she has a, uh, she has a training which is free, uh, that she does with Jack Kornfield, who's another meditation rock star. It's called The Power of Awareness, and it's a 40-day program you can do.
49:38.4 It's about 10 to 15 minutes each, each day. It gives you a little bit of an overview and a little bit of practice, and many people have found that to be really, really helpful. It's really clean. It kind of takes you through it. So for anyone interested, I would really recommend that as kind of a, uh, as a way of kind of getting oriented, and this is the tradition of, um, of insight meditation- Beautiful ... which is a, which is kind of a breath-based meditation. That'd be a great way to start. When I, uh, let my mind wander into my past, I remember one thing you said to me.
50:18.7 I said, "This is great, but here I wanna focus on a steady daily meditation practice. You know, what are some things I can do to be successful?" And, and one of the things you said to me I remember was, "Put yourself in a position where you can be successful." So start out with X minutes a day where you know you can do it. So, like, if, can you do five minutes a day? If you can do five minutes a day, that's a lot better than someone saying, "I have to do 20 minutes a day," and they p- start to build stress around that timeframe, and
50:54.6 then you start to shut down. Exactly. Exactly. I, I like to think of it as the minimum effective dose, you know? What's the smallest amount I can do to get the maximum benefit? It's a small And it's much, it's much better to do five minutes a day every day than 25 minutes on Sunday, you know? So when I do, I do my practice first thing. I just roll out of bed and I sit. Because if I don't do it first thing, then it, it may not get done. So that's important. But, but again, you know, company is stronger than willpower, you know? Um- Mm-hmm ...
51:32.2 read this Forbes magazine article that said if you take your five best friends and you average out their income, it's probably your income. Interesting. And when I read that, I thought, "I, I need some new friends." But the truth, but the point of the article is w- you resonate who you spend time with. Sure. You know? Who, who you hang out with is who you will resonate with. And, and for anyone interested in meditation to, to find other people who are interested or just one person who's interested, it's gonna spark you and help you to kind of stay, keep your practice, you know, alive and, and vibrant because, um, because it will be challenging.
52:13.0 This is not an easy, it's not an easy practice. Yeah, and I think folks being aware that when you do hit a wall, that is a wall of success. It's n- it's not a wall of it's not working out. Exactly. It's really kind of the fruit of your practice. Right. It's taking you to, to yet another growth opportunity, really. And we are all such deep layered human beings. You could practice every day for the rest of your life and you'd still have stuff coming up for you. You're s- we're so, we're such a deeply layered organism. I love the analogy that when we're, when we're little kids, we're these hard drives without virus protection.
52:57.1 Geez. You know? Yeah. And so we're just, we're just picking up, you know, our, our, our, our, our f- family of origin's point of view, all of those, our culture, all of that is sort of like just downloaded in our hard drive. And in many ways, meditation is sort of about defragging and, you know, and deconditioning your hard drive to get back to that original, you know, that original sense. And, and we get glimpses of it. You know, we get those- Sure ... glimpses of, like, those moments when you're, you're not wanting anything other than what's here. Um, you know, just those moments of peace.
53:34.1 Those are powerful glimpses to have, and they're kinda what keeps us going. It really... You know, when we're young, we have all this energy, but we have super low awareness. And then as we get older, we have all this awareness, but heck, we don't have the energy anymore. So where's the space in between? Well, it begins meeting someone like you. And, and, and finding like-minded people. Yeah. When folks are looking for support, how do they get ahold of Jonathan Foust? Uh, well, I have a couple offerings. You know, I do, uh, I do a weekly class, um, and that's live-streamed on Monday nights. Nice. But it's also on, on Facebook and YouTube and, and all that good stuff.
54:22.8 Mm-hmm. Um, I do occasional re- I do occasional retreats. I'm actually have been leading multiple week-long retreats for many, many years. I'm kinda stepping back from that now. Mm-hmm. Um, but I do offer some, um, you know, some, like, day-long and half-day retreats, you know, um, every year. So, um, all that's available. I pro- I must have about 500 talks and guided meditations, and- Wonderful ... I also, on, on InsightTimer, I have some guided meditations. And for those who are interested in meditation, InsightTimer, um, is an app and a website where you can, um, you can use it to time your own meditation. But there's, there m- tons and tons of guided meditations you can check out.
55:03.9 So I do have some there, uh, that, that are, um, might be helpful. You know, meditation is a modern ancient medicine, and it works, folks. And if you're looking for a tribe or you're looking to deepen your practice, I suggest getting with Jonathan on Monday night, uh, through the social media channels, or reach out to his website. It's just a plethora of information that works. It's time-tested, it's proven, and Jonathan has a certain way of holding space for you where you'll feel deeply loved, deeply supported, and deeply connected to parts of ourselves that sometimes we feel fragmented from or isolated from. He's the real deal.
55:47.1 He's changed my life. He's changed thousands of people's lives for the better. It's, it's 100% it's going to work. You just have to open that window a little bit and let his voice blow into it, and you will feel love that you were born with as you came out of your mother. So Jonathan, thank you so much for your time today. My heart is just full being around you for an hour, and I wish you and Tara every success along the way. Thank you so much, Ed, and, uh, and, and deep gratitude to you. You know, I, I feel so blessed to have, have shared a lot of this wacky path with you, and, uh, and, and you and Wendy are an inspiration as to how you are
56:30.9 ... You're just serving with such open hearts. So- I am just so- ... a real pleasure to connect. Yeah, I am so proud of you. You know, through all the adversity, this has not been easy. You know, you've had a lot of peaks, had a couple non-peaks. And you know what? Sometimes nice guys finish first. And congratulations to you. Thank you. I, I feel so blessed. I really do. Hook up with Jonathan Foust, ladies and gentlemen. You will not be disappointed. Thank you very much, Jonathan. I look forward to continuing this conversation, uh, sometime in the future. Great. Thanks so much. Blessings. Thank, thank you, brother.