Ed Harrold and James Nestor discuss breath as a practical doorway into the body, health, stress regulation, and daily life.
Ed Harrold with James Nestor. Originally published on YouTube February 5, 2021. Watch the original conversation on YouTube.
Ed Harrold and James Nestor discuss breath as a practical doorway into the body, health, stress regulation, and daily life.
00:00.2 How are you, sir? Great. I just finished, uh, an interview about 10 seconds ago, so, uh, a little frazzled, but I'm here to breathe. You can tell me how to calm myself down with the power of breath. We're gonna work through that Well, I'm super excited to, to share an hour of, of, of your life. And, uh, for those folks who might have been under a rock for the past, uh, six months or so, we have this amazing book by, uh, Mr. Nestor that I suggest that everyone get into, uh, their subconscious memory very, very quickly, uh, as we move through this year of chaos.
00:40.1 And, uh, even though there's a lot of chaos going on, there's still a- an infinite supply of love, uh, available to all of us, even during these times where we might seem like we might not be getting exactly what we would prefer to occur. So, you know, before we begin, when we get into the nuts and bolts of, uh, what I'd love to share with the folks about your work, both personally and professionally, because this a, this is a double-edged, uh, sword, this, this breathing thing. We in- we include the internal personal, emotional, and intellectual content. Then we take that out into all of our relationships.
01:20.1 What would you say, uh, James, if we did just a couple minutes of breathing to get down into the body? I would love that, and I need it now more than ever. So take me away. So let's just, uh, begin, everyone, by just, if we feel comfortable, just letting our eyes close for a moment. And notice as soon as you close your eyes, you have what is called a, a parasympathetic response, uh, moving through those dual branches of the autonomic system. And if you can just really plant your feet firmly down into the earth and your brain can sense your lower body mechanics and strength, you'll notice your spine
02:00.3 becomes straight. And then begin to inhale slowly down into the navel area, using the diaphragm, getting the air into the lower lobes of the lungs first, where we have this oxygen-rich, hemoglobin-rich parasympathetic activity, and then letting the diaphragm press down and the air lift up towards the top sleeve of your lungs, which is sympathetic energy. Really turn off the muscles you use to move your eyes. Release and relax your masseter and your low jaw. Allow the maxilla bone to, to spread east and west with the tongue on the upper palate, and you're well on your way to a pleasurable moment with yourself. If you're familiar with the ocean sounding breath from the yoga tradition, you can increase the quality of the length, depth, and
02:52.2 pace of the inhale and exhale, and prepare and humidify the air before it comes into the alveoli sacs of your lungs. Now, you'll notice the breath is intelligent all on its own and knows exactly where to move through your brain. It knows exactly where to move through your body. And without straining, simply notice if you can inhale maybe 5% more and exhale 5% more. And the inhale on its own is predominantly sympathetic in its own, and the exhale on its own is parasympathetic. Notice you can exhale longer than your inhale when you're utilizing the nostrils. If this is comfortable for you, you might wanna add a pause at the end of the inhale before you exhale, stabilizing
04:03.6 the brain and your inspiratory muscles. If this is comfortable for you, you might want to add a pause at the base of your exhale before you inhale again, strengthening emotional content and strengthening the expiratory muscles. All of this designed to support cardiovascular, neurological, and gastrointestinal function. And then utilizing our whole brain for this information that we're going to share. Let's take the right thumb and come up and close off the right nostril. And as you inhale slowly up the left nasal channel, know that this is parasympathetic on the inhale, and it'll trace the energy into your right prefrontal cortex. Use one of your fingers, close off the left nostril, exhale down the right, and on the exhale, the right nostril is parasympathetic.
05:16.3 And then inhaling up the right nasal channel, this is sympathetic on the inhale, feeds the left prefrontal cortex. Close off the right, exhale slowly out the left, and that is also sympathetic on the exhale. Take a deep breath in, center yourself for this amazing man and the work that he has so richly dedicated to himself and everyone here on the planet. So welcome, James. Okay. Uh, I was not able to unmute myself. I apologize for that. Oh. I am now able to unmute myself, and thank you very much for having me. Uh, it's great to be with you. And for those who don't know, James is a researcher, an author, a journalist for Outside, Scientific America, The Atlantic, and, and many, many more.
06:14.5 He's covered science and extreme sports- The researcher in him had enlisted in a 21-day Stanford, uh, University experiment where he had his nasal cavities, uh, plugged, his mouth taped, and he basically used himself as a guinea pig to see what would happen, uh, in his, his mind and body. And then the nostrils were open and, uh, the, the, and the mouth was closed, the nostrils were open, and then we had a period of, of research where, uh, James was simply nostril breathing. Uh, the, the research and science that came out, uh, of the book, uh, is, is amazing. It's cutting edge. I love it because it, it basically backs everything that I've been trying to bring to the, uh, humanity for the past 25 years, and I'm thrilled to have James with us today and share
07:03.9 a little bit about his journey. So welcome. Thanks a lot for, for having me here. You know, just to start out right off the bat, you know, for anybody who doesn't know about the experiment that, that you went under, uh, would you care to share a little bit about your awareness that you went through during tha- those times? Sure. So I had been talking with the chief of rhinology research at Stanford, real nose guy, and he told me about all of the benefits associated with nasal breathing, which no one was really refuting. And he was telling me all the problems associated with mouth breathing; neurological issues, metabolic issues, respiratory issues, on and on and on.
07:42.7 But nobody really knew how quickly those problems came on. He didn't know. He had never studied it. No one had. So we set up a little experiment in which, uh, myself and another breathing therapist by the name of Anders Olson went to Stanford and had our noses plugged for 10 days. And I know to a lot of people this sounds horrifying, and it was. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. But if you think about the population, something like 25 to 50% of the population has chronic nasal obstruction, which means that they're breathing through their mouths. So what we were doing really wasn't extraordinary in any way.
08:20.0 It was just, we were lulling ourselves into a position that so many people already knew. The difference was we were collecting data along the way. So that was how the, uh, experiment was set up. 10 days of mouth breathing and then 10 days of nasal breathing, then comparing data sets and see if it made any difference to our brains, our bodies or anything else. I- is there anything that really popped out to you during, during the, uh, time that was just- Earth-shattering to your ego. Everything popped out at me. Uh, we knew it wasn't gonna be pleasant, mouth-breathing. Okay? That, that was obvious. We didn't know it was gonna be so bad so quickly.
08:58.3 So within a few hours, my blood pressure just shot through the roof into serious stage two hypertension, to the point where I was actually even freaked out, just by changing the pathway through which we breathe air, which you just don't see people talking about hypertension and mouth-breathing too much. At least I didn't. And then that night, I started snoring. I had not been snoring before. I started snoring. I said, "This is weird, I'm snoring." Then I started suffering from sleep apnea, and the other subject, Anders, suffered the same exact damage. Uh, we had problems concentrating, we were extremely fatigued, we looked like hell. Our bodies were just so out of balance, and just by breathing through our mouths, uh, how it made such a, such a huge difference to how we were able
09:41.2 to, to think about things, and how we were able to react to things. It, it's amazing that the, the, the... there's so little awareness, especially during this challenging times we're moving through right now, about how our nostrils play such a huge role in regard to staying in that 24-hour cycle, strengthening our immune system, improving digestion, elimination, and assimilation, amplifying the vagus nerve. You know, all the things that we think about that are the foundations of staying healthy and young and vibrant, both in the mind and the body, you know, it really can be traced back, without too much trouble, as you prove, to basically how you're respiring the internal world.
10:22.5 Yeah. And again, it's... the, the science is very clear on this. No one's really refuting it, right? There hasn't been anyone that's come out and said, "No, no, no. Nasal breathing, forget about it. Just breathe through the mouth." But so few people are recognizing it. Uh, nasal breathing is so under-utilized and it's, it's not really taught anywhere. And that's what I thought was so strange, is to see 50 years of, of amazing scientific research done in these areas, and then you look at ancient script and they're all talking about nasal breathing. And yet, you look around any city, I live here in San Francisco, in the middle of the city, and people are mouth-breathing all the time, all over the place.
11:04.2 And I was guilty of this for, for decades when I was a kid, and even in adulthood, because I didn't know the difference, you know? But with knowledge comes power, and once you know the problem, you can help fix it. It's interesting when you start to investigate, uh, the, the different mental states. You know, our moods, uh, our quality of our energy, our level of vitality. And w- it can be traced back to our... you know, how we're breathing. And even the structures of our face. If you look at how the face has changed through orthodontic and all sorts of ways that we impair the nostrils and our airway, you know, in
11:41.3 2020. It, it... we, we make life... I mean, life's hard and we're tough, but boy, we make it hard on ourselves. Yeah, and this was something that really shocked me, is to learn that our poor breathing habits aren't just psychological, they're not just environmental, they're anatomical. So our faces have profoundly changed in just the last few hundred years. They've changed so much that our teeth no longer fit properly in our mouths. Mm-hmm. So they grow in crooked. And the other problem with having a mouth that's too small for your face is it means you have a smaller airway, which makes it harder to breathe. And so this is something that's affected, uh, basically everyone on the planet right now.
12:27.5 The shrinking of the mouth, the shrinking of the jaw, this flattening of the face. And it is having such a serious impact on our health, because if we can't breathe well, nothing will ever work well in your body, and that's very clear. Yeah, the great quote in your book is, you know, "No matter what you eat, how, how much you exercise, how skinny or young or strong you are, none of it matters if you're not breathing properly." And that, boy, is, uh, profound. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, this is... my, my job as a, as a journalist isn't to m- you know, to ruminate on certain things, to theorize stuff or hypothesize on stuff.
13:15.8 It's to go out in the field and talk to the experts, and this is something I did for, for years at top institutions. So what you see in the book is this is filtered directly from the experts in the field who have spent decades on this stuff. My job was to cobble it together and try to make it into a cohesive story. But that line right there is, is absolutely true, and I could give you a zillion examples of triathletes or muscle men or the people that you would assume were the healthiest people on the planet. Right. Those guys on Venice Beach who are all oiled up, lifting weights.
13:51.0 They can't breathe and they die in their 40s and 50s. Um- Right ... and this is, this is the truth. So we, we've been looking a lot at, in our culture, a lot of food, which is fantastic. You need to eat right, okay? You need to exercise. But you also need to breathe right, and it's that last little bit that I thought people just weren't really paying attention to or acknowledging. Yeah, I, I think it's just a great awareness and... You know, uh, try to draw analogies for folks. When you think about, you know, we're all born nasal breathers. You know, as soon as our, our nostrils are clear when we come out of our mother, the first thing the DNA is designed to do is to establish respiration through the nostrils.
14:32.1 And, you know, a, a young child will only breathe through its mouth i, as if his sinuses are clo- you know, clogged for a couple weeks, and when it's clear, he's gonna go right back to nostril breathing. You know, the fastest animal on the earth, the cheetah, you know, it breathes through its nose its entire life, running 60 miles an hour. Every horse that's won the Kentucky Derby breathes through its nose its entire life. But somehow, in our head, we get this hyperventilation going into our mouth and we get all aroused and we get all excited and it's wonderful, but it's unsustainable. Yeah, and I think it's just so widespread that many of us consider it normal.
15:10.0 Right. You can go on YouTube and see videos of babies snoring, and everyone's saying, "Oh, isn't, isn't this cute?" Mm-hmm. That kid is struggling to breathe. Right. And this has... it's gonna have so many damaging effects to its brain development, to its ability to grow, actually grow. It'll affect its bones- Mm-hmm ... its ability to, to breathe. And, and again, even in adulthood, you see people mouth breathing all the time, especially populations with asthma or anxiety. These are populations that traditionally breathe way more than everyone else, way more than they need to. But even beyond them, even if you don't have an underlying condition, people as a whole breathe too much.
15:50.4 And, and to me, the, the, the data is very clear on that as well. You know, it's, it's interesting. You know, I believe, like, this science and everything that you've brought to, uh, the world, you know, we're still in the first inning here, kind of educating humanity both in, you know, the medical realm about how important this is to be proactive because the body itself is a self-healing machine. You know, it, it, it's all the time taking care of itself a- and growing and, and learning. And, and it's... the breath is a major tool to reduce inflammation, to cut down acidity, to improve alkalinity, you know, to strengthen the vagus nerve and the beautiful diaphragm
16:31.5 muscle. And, and you think about, you know, how many times we get in our own way, and it, it's, it's really remarkable that the first thing we did when we came out of our mother t- is take a breath. It is really the first step to getting back in alignment with our true self. For sure. And what's great about breathing is you can adopt healthy breathing practices and get back in that alignment if you're so far off. So the point of, of my research in the book wasn't just to point out all the problems with humanity, all the problems with our breathing. It was to acknowledge what's gone wrong so then, then we can learn how to fix it because only by first acknowledging how screwed up we are, how disorganized
17:19.3 and inadequate our breathing is, can we then improve it and have a reason to improve it. So it's that story behind the story I thought was more important than just having breathing techniques. Breathing techniques are easy, but- Until you understand really what's happening in, in your body when you're breathing poorly or you're breathing well, why this is happening, where it all comes from, and how to improve it. I think that I c- I couldn't find too many books that were doing this, so, so that's what I really tried to focus on is that, that story underneath just, just the specific practices and techniques. Yeah, r- super interesting.
17:54.3 You know, 'cause the breath on its own is a standalone exercise all on its own. There's cardiovascular strength, there's flexibility, there is strength training, and there's mindfulness training, and you're getting all four forms of how we take care of ourself all in the same second just by getting control of something as simple as this. For sure. And, you know, if, if you think about it, like, the actual steps to healthy breathing are very easy, and this is what I call the chapters in the books. You know, if you don't wanna buy the book, you can just read those chapter titles. Breathe through the nose, okay?
18:31.8 Exhale fully. Slow down your breathing. Breathe less. Breathe more, sometimes. Only on occasion. Right. That's all you really need to know. So someone can take that, I can tell someone, "Right now, just become an obligate nasal breather, and when you can, breathe at a rate of about five to six seconds in, five to six seconds out." Mm-hmm. Those two steps alone can have such a transformational effect on your he- I've seen this with people, and yet it's so under-acknowledged and under-appreciated. And again, my, my job was to not just give those directions, 'cause that's really easy, but if people don't understand why this works or what, what's really happening
19:13.0 in themselves, I don't think they're gonna do it. And, and so that, that deeper story is what I hope is gonna allow people to better acknowledge this and, and to carry on, and, and to breathe this way. You know, when you first got involved in, in, you know, taking breath classes or, or learning pranayama, or controlled breathing, conscious breathing, intentional breathing, you know, w- was there ever a moment, you know, where, where you were just inside your mind and something just, like, came out of, like, left field in, in your unconscious and became conscious, and you were like, "Wow, that's cool"? Oh, I think the whole process of writing this book, you know?
19:52.7 I th- I thought I had this book figured out. S- in non-fiction you, you write a proposal, right? Mm-hmm. So this proposal, it, it, this is delineates exactly what you're gonna do. "Here are the chapters. Here are the people I'm gonna talk to." You, you don't talk about the story, but it's your game plan, and that- Mm-hmm ... that's what you sell to publishers, and then they send you off to go write it ov- over the years. So I thought I had this world pretty well figured out. I'd spent, you know, a long time on this proposal. But it wasn't until you really get into the nitty-gritty, you get several layers deep in it, that I realized there was such a, another crazier story here.
20:27.7 Um, the anthropological change, the, the evolutionary anatomical change that's happened to our faces blew me away. The fact that we're breathing way too much, and by breathing slowly and less we get more oxygen, that doesn't make any sense. It's 100% true. The fact that we can breathe in ways to activate stress in our body. Mm-hmm. You think, "Why do I wanna be stressed? I'm stressed all day." But finding how therapeutic that is, because once you learn to control stress, then you can turn it off and- Mm-hmm ... remain un-stressed the rest... So, a- again, the science was, was so clear, but it just seemed so muddled in academese and muddled in, in all of these
21:11.1 different journals. Um, but, but it's breathing. It's something we carry with us all the time. If you're breathing 20,000 times a day, if you're doing that incorrectly, what's gonna happen? Like, try walking incorrect, taking 10,000 steps a day with your ankle at, at a slight angle. See what's gonna happen to your whole body. So breathing should be considered the same thing. Yeah, I... Thank you. I, I really think that, uh, you know, bringing some scholarly research and kinda organizing the past 5,000 years, you know, kinda where we are and, and what the future might look like, you know, for those of us that, that are interested in, you know, becoming really good global citizens, you know.
21:56.1 When you think about how that breath can energize us in such a way that we're so dialed in, yet completely calm and non-reactive. 'Cause nor- in our normal state of mind it seems, you know, we got all this energy and we're gonna go do this, and then we go do that, and then we're exhausted, and we gotta go take a nap. We take a couple days off, you know, it's a weekend. You know, when you start to practice pranayama, you harness the opposite ends of the seesaw and you begin to wake up to the fact that I can be super charged but completely calm. And that's what you want.
22:32.1 Es- especially in the modern age, which is demand- so demanding of so many of us. Right. Hour after hour. You need to be focused, but you also need to have energy to just get through the day. Right. A lot of people view these things at, at odds. I see them as being completely synergistic. And what you're doing is you're allowing your body to work at peak efficiency. So why expend a bunch of energy on something to, to work less good, to be less efficient? Right. Right. And when your, when your breathing is dysfunctional, that's what you're doing. You're forcing your body to constantly compensate for your dysfunction.
23:11.8 Mm-hmm. You can stay alive doing that. Right. You see people stay... But that doesn't mean you're healthy, and especially if you're looking at breathing in sleep. A lot of people think if they focus on their breathing during the day, that's important, but if you're spending a third of your life breathing in an unhealthy, improper way during sleep- It's gonna completely destroy you. Look at the science behind sleep apnea. Look at the science of, of snoring. And not even that, upper airway resistance syndrome. Mm-hmm. Any difficulty breathing at night can have downstream effects on everything, on your brain, on the rest of your body. You know, it's funny that, you know, humans, you know, we're the only animal on the planet that has trouble sleeping.
23:53.9 You know, ev- everybo- all the other animals are... They, they sleep fine, and they can be attacked at any given moment. And, you know, I think a lot of that can be traced back simply to the fact that we can override our natural physiological response of breathing, and then psychologically we can plant this mouth breathing in. We can disrupt our internal clock, our inter- We can overheat ourselves, so to speak, during the day, and there's not enough time to cool ourselves down for the brain to feel safe enough that we're not in a dangerous environment for us to get into those deep delta waves. So, it, you know...
24:27.1 Yeah. Yeah. You know, there was this study I came across from the Mayo Clinic. I included it in the notes in the book. It didn't fit in the, in the main book. But they did these very broad studies looking at people who suffered from insomnia, and a lot of these people were given drugs, tranquilizers to help them, sleeping pills to help them go to sleep. But then they looked at their breathing and they found that 50% of them had sleep apnea. So by giving someone who has sleep apnea a tranquiliz- they're gonna be breathing even worse. Of course. So, so much of poor breathing... I'm not saying all of it.
25:01.0 I don't know exactly- Yeah ... what that percentage is, but so much of it is tied to how you're breathing at night. Your sleep quality, those two things are intimately connected. And in my opinion, you first need to take care of your breathing. You can take care of your breathing, then if you're still staying up at night, if you're still anxious, then that's something else you can tackle. Hm. But you have to first, first take care of your breathing, for sure. You know, it's interesting when, when we're trying to introduce a new behavior to the brain, you know, I, I've found that it is, uh...
25:36.6 It's easier to introduce new behavior to the brain when we're not in that full-on beta mind, you know, when we're in our 9:00 to 5:00 doing mind. And I find that the first five minutes when I get up in the morning and the last five minutes before I close my eyes at night, these magical bookends, which none of us pay attention to really much anymore, but if we're looking to introduce new behaviors and new breathing patterns, using these bookends while the brain is more in that theta brainwave pattern where it's more childlike and open, you don't have that normal gatekeeper saying, "Oh, we don't do this," you know, it's not a big hassle.
26:14.8 So my experience has been- The first five and the last five. Does that resonate with you? That makes perfect sense. Different things work for different people. Like, you know- Right ... a lot of people, when they're changing their habits, really wanna go fully into it. A lot of people have to go into it slowly. Mm-hmm. And what's great about breathing is there's so many different ways to, to do it, and if you're wanna be really aggressive and set timers, you can do that. But- Mm ... it starts with the first step. It starts by acknowledging your breathing. And that, that, to me, is probably the most important thing, to acknowledge how you're breathing throughout the day.
26:48.7 If you're like me, you're gonna notice your breathing is so erratic. When I sit down at my computer, there's 70 unanswered emails, and everyone needs a response immediately, I put on a pulse oximeter and, and watched my breathing just go to hell. Mm. So that's not when you want to lose your ability to focus, okay? Right, right. That's not when you want to suck oxygen to the brain. That's when you need it the most. So I think noticing it, noticing it when you're working out, noticing it when you're walking, when you're at your desk, is really the first step. Then after that, you can start building different strategies to improve your breathing.
27:29.1 Yeah, I think a lot of people aren't aware of all the different ways that we can inhale and exhale. I mean, there, you, you can't count that high. There, there is so many different fractions that you can play with length, depth, pace, internal retention, external retention, and all of it hits your nervous system slightly differently, which produces communication. Yeah, it's... What, what you're doing is you're overriding some of the nervous system that, that is otherwise- Mm ... unconscious. And a lot of people don't, don't acknowledge this. They just expect that the brain is just sending orders all over through, to our, our organs or to our heart to, to function in different ways, but we can send orders back to our brains.
28:16.0 So 80% of the communication is from our bodies, from our organs, to our brain. Yes. Only 20% is coming from our brains to the rest of our bodies. So- Yes ... right now, if, if you were breathing slowly, you're sending your brain a message to calm down. This will change the brain chemistry. This can influence the way you think about things. So if ever you're really anxious, you're really mad about something, the last thing you should be doing is continuing to breathe- Mm ... in this dysfunctional way. Right. You should slow down, take control of your breathing, and you can... That can help you better take control of your emotions, which is so important, especially now during this very stressful time.
28:57.4 Yeah. You know, and that's a great analogy, James. I really appreciate that because, you know, when life starts to move a little too fast in front of your computer screen or whatever you're in, you can create homeostasis by counterbalancing that, by slowing your breath down. And when the computer screen or something outside of you feels a little stuck and you feel a little lethargic, then you breathe fast for a few breaths, and that'll kickstart that. So the breath is kind of a perfect counterbalance microcosmically to the macro of what's going on around us. For sure, and that's what I love about breathing as well. It's not just about chilling yourself out and being meditative.
29:36.7 That's a great space to be throughout most of the day, but sometimes I want a squirt of energy. Sometimes I wanna feel something different, and by breathing in certain ways, whether... You can choose, choose your medicine here, pranayama, Sudarshan Kriya, Wim Hof Method- Mm ... Tummo, whatever. It goes by a zillion different names. It's all doing the same thing. Mm-hmm. It's activating that sympathetic stress in your body to allow you to control it. I'm a huge fan of those. If you look at the science behind Wim Hof Method, I mean, which is really Tummo, or the science behind pranayama or the science be- behind Sudarshan Kriya, 80 independent studies
30:14.7 in Sudarshan Kriya alone looking at- Lots of good stuff ... looking at its effects on, on anxiety, depression, even autoimmune problems, asthma, it's so clear what's happening here. It's just a matter of doing it. And to me, one of the best parts of this, not only to know that it's having this effect on my, my health, it feels great when I do these exercises. Right. I feel amazing while I'm doing them and while after as well, and I sleep so much better. So there's, there's really nothing to lose. Yeah. You know, when I, when I think about it, any type of breath control is gonna get your attention, whether it's good, bad, or whatever.
30:53.1 We'll sort it out later, but the idea is to refine attention and, you know, and, and be with yourself fully, with the opportunity, with whatever's there for you, with a, you know, hopefully a, a, where you can control your heart rate. You know, when I first learned pranayam about 25 years ago, I learned it from an Indian saint who practiced pranayam 10 hours a day for 30 years straight and didn't miss one day. Now, I took the foundation of what he was just so... He dedicated his whole life to it, but what I saw in it was that this was multidimensional, multi-platform. I don't just do this in my chair.
31:34.8 I do this on my bike. I do this on my hike. I do this on my walk. I do this on my computer. I do this with my wife. I do this with my kids. I've trained myself so that whether I'm controlling my breath or not, my subconscious is always there instructing me with the maximum breath routine with the least amount of wear and tear to the cells in my body. And that, that's the key, okay? So no one wants to r- walk around with a bunch of different timers to remind you to breathe correctly. Right. No one wants to be wearing a pulse oximeter all day.
32:11.1 Well, maybe some people do. I don't. No one wants to carry around a notepad. So the point is to use all these breathing techniques to acclimate your body, to get your CO2 in check, so that they become an automatic habit. And that can take a long time, especially if you've been breathing improperly for decades and decades. Mm-hmm. But that's what you wanna do. I think I'm still on the, on the road to get there. Uh, I've noticed my breathing has greatly improved, but it does fall offline often, and that's not the worst thing in the world, you know? You can just go and, and re-correct it.
32:47.5 But, but, uh, you know, the... Having that, that ability to train your, your unconscious mind to be able to breathe at, at peak efficiency is... That's- that's enlightenment and that's, that's the key. You know, when, when you exercise, uh, is there any specific breathing, uh, exercises you'd like to share with the audience today? I breathe through my nose the whole time, and if- So do I ... a- if, if at any time I'm noticing that I'm having trouble breathing through my nose, I slow down to consciously breathe through my nose always. And I learned this from Patrick McKeown, I learned it from Anders Olsson, I learned this from Brian Mackenzie.
33:23.4 These are all breathing therapists who work with top athletes. They say, "Never work out harder than you can breathe correctly." Exactly. You know? The moment your breath starts falling apart, slow it down, build your base, and then build upon that base. So I've noticed even when I'm surfing, 'cause I much prefer water sports than, than land sports, and I'm here in San Francisco, so that's my, my real salvation a- amidst all this craziness on the, on the terrestrial plane. But even then, I've, I've managed to become an obligate nasal breather. It's a little hard after you, you wipe out, but then you can just clear things out.
33:59.9 It's kinda like a neti pot, you know? I don't think it's a, it's a coincidence that you put the exact same amount of salt, um, into a neti pot, into that water that exists in the ocean. So, um, I, I think nasal breathing all the time is so important. Yeah, I... You know, surfing is just like a HIIT class in the water. You know, you're gonna get your heart rate up going out. Exactly. You're gonna get your heart rate back down. Your heart rate variability score goes up. You look for the wave. You choose the wave, the wave doesn't choose you. Mm-hmm. And then you go.
34:30.7 Yep, yep. And that's, that's, that's what it is. But even when it gets extremely intense, and I've noticed I used to always breathe through my mouth when it's a big day out. Mm-hmm. I've noticed, like, once you adapt to nasal breathing, yeah, there's that nagging need to breathe, but you acknowledge that that is not from a lack of oxygen. That is from an increase of carbon dioxide. Dioxide. And once your, once your CO2 tolerance gets a little higher You can then breathe more slowly, more fluidly, and you're getting more oxygen, which is especially important if you're gonna go be wiped out by some huge wave and be held under
35:12.2 for for a minute. You need as much oxygen as efficiently as you can get as, as possible, and I think nasal breathing, especially with a boost of nitric oxide, really has its advantages no matter what you're doing. Well, it's interesting that, uh, you know, when I exercise and I feel that urge to, uh, to mouth breathe, what I'll do is there's, there's a yoga breathing technique called Kapalabhati, and rather than do 20, 30 rounds, I'll do two or three rounds real fast, just . And it'll reset my autonomic system, the brain'll get the carbon dioxide out, there's an O2 kick, and then right back to nostril breath.
35:51.2 So there's nothing wasted with mouth breathing. So even the... Like, your, your mouth breathing, you're overheating, but if you just get a little bit of that heating breath and you apply it for two or three rounds, it's a cooling mechanism. Unbelievable. Yeah. And yeah, I just wanna be clear to people because some people, actually a lot of people, have written about this. They're like, "I notice I'm mouth breathing when, when I laugh. I notice I'm mouth breathing when I'm talking." This is fine. Right. We're talking about habitual mouth breathing- Right ... versus habitual... Right now, we're talking, I'm taking a lot of breaths through, through my mouth.
36:24.1 Mm-hmm. I'm on, you know, I'm on a ph- on the phone doing these things for hours a day, and I'm not trying to focus on my breathing, but I'm breathing a lot through my mouth. But when I'm not doing this is when you can compensate. If you, if you're talking about 20,000, 25,000 breaths a day, so you take 500 through your mouth, who cares? That's- Mm ... it's completely fine. Again, we're talking about habits here and establishing healthy hablets- habits. Uh, whether or not you're, you're exercising, whether or not you're sleeping, whether or not you're at a computer. You know, it's interesting when, uh, when you are breathing through your nose and you get that vertical downward movement of the diaphragm, and you think of a sport like surfing where there's a lot of, uh, cross
37:04.1 patterning movement, and you think about how the diaphragm connects down into the psoas and how the psoas connects to our lower body mechanics. And everything in athletics comes from our lower body mechanics first, how our feet are connecting with the planet, and how the diaphragm on that inhale is just a major connector to, you know, our body. And when you think about that, you know, how could we ever surf in all the years we did mouth breaking? And you know, we pulled it off. And, you know, you think about what that diaphragm's doing in regard to calming, connecting the body, getting that cross patterning effect through the solar plexus so that we're in balance
37:39.3 as we cut on the wave. It's really fascinating. Yeah, and you can think of breathing isn't, it isn't just a biochemical process. It's not just about- Right ... allowing oxygen to get into your blood and to feed those hungry cells. It's biomechanical too, and this is something that I'm just getting a lot more clued into. I've talked to a couple doctors about this. But when you take that deep, slow, light breath in, you inhale, that diaphragm is sinking down. Mm-hmm. And when this big muscle, this big diaphragm sinks down, it gently massages all of those organs around there, which is what you need to really process lymph fluid.
38:16.2 Yeah. So, um, having a diaphragmatic movement about 40 plus, 40% plus, can really help purge all of these toxins and lymph fluid, which is fascinating to me, that, you know, healthy breathing extends far beyond, uh, molecules, right? Yeah. It ex- extends far beyond CO2 and ox- It extends to how your organs are functioning and how they're excreting waste. It's fascinating stuff. Y- you know, the diaphragm really does act like an organ. With all the various responsibilities it connects us with, from the, the gut to the brain, y- y- you're speaking about these, this upper abdomen massage. You know, we have these floating ribs, these ribs that aren't attached to the sternum, and as the diaphragm strengthens going down, it pulls those ribs down on the right side of your belly
39:08.8 onto your liver and gallbladder, which it plays a huge role in your level of energy. And it also comes down onto your stomach and spleen on the left side of your belly, which plays a huge role in digestion and the quality of your blood. And folks don't e- th- most folks aren't aware of that. Yeah, and it's, it's a huge pump for your blood as well. Right, right. Some, some doctors have gone so far as to say that's your major pump, is your diaphragm. Right. Like, like the heart is secondary. I don't know if I would say that. I'm just quoting- Mm ... quoting from them.
39:35.9 But it, it, it facilitates a tremendous amount of blood flow. And why would you want to overburden the heart so much by not engaging this other huge pump in our bodies? And I think that that's one of the reasons you take these very slow, light, and deep breaths. You watch blood pressure go down, right? 'Cause things are, are operating at a much more, uh, uh, of a level of efficiency. That's exactly what you want. It, it's, it's amazing when you think, uh, you know, the diaphragm i, is a muscle that has very little s- sensory fibers on it. You can't really get at it. The, uh, you know, the...
40:14.4 And, and it only has one motor nerve, you know, the phrenic nerve. It's unfortunate. The phrenic nerve. But it only has one motor nerve. And, you know, pranayama or Wim Hof or whatever it's, Sureš Okade is, whatever you're doing, w- that's the ol- it's the most efficient way to amplify your phrenic nerve and to increase muscular fiber of the diaphragm. And as your diaphragm strengthens, your ribs will become elastic. And when your ribs... You get that swimmer's V type of deal where the lungs can really exchange a lot of energy. Yeah, and if you look at what happens to the human body as we grow older- Right ...
40:53.3 we lo- uh, we lose lung capacity. From the age of 30 to 50, we lose something like 15%- Yeah ... of our lung capacity, and then a lot more after that. So this is not the time you want to be losing lung capacity. This is not the time you wanna be having your body have to struggle to do anything. And if you look at yoga, what is yoga? But stretching and breathing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And keeping this area elastic and flexible- ... so that the lungs can naturally stay at their healthy size so that they don't start shriveling down. And so much of that is tied to the, how flexible this ribcage is and the intercostals- Right ...
41:32.9 and e- and everything else. And again, I, I think that this is something that is largely ignored, even in fitness circles where you see these people that are just like sucking in the, gotta have the washboard ab all the time and- Right ... you know, may- maybe that looks good for your Instagram picture, but you're gonna look a lot better if you're living healthily 30 years from now than, than in one that w- you know, just in that little picture. So I think that, uh, you know, that, that vanity and the focus on, on aesthetics, if, if you really want a healthy body, it's okay to stick out your stomach a bit.
42:07.2 It's okay to have a lot of lateral movement Right ... when you take in a breath and when you exhale, and the, the benefits can, can really be profound. It's amazing because our exhale really is a baby sit-up. You know, we're engaging our rectus abdominis, our obliques, our transverse abdo- these are all the muscles we use i- in a sit-up. And if we can just, you know, just quietly just practice psychologically drawing our navel a little further back to our spine, I think we're doing something very good for ourselves. For sure. And you know, I don't know if there's been any studies on this, but, uh, you see these people who do a ton of pranayama, don't do any exercise, and they're, they're, they're pretty ripped.
42:49.9 Uh, so, so I think- ... that's a, that's another way of doing it as, as well. And not only that is, again, you're really massaging these different organs, and you're purging all those toxins and that lymph fluid out of your body. Yeah, it, it's an amazing practice. And when we think about, you know, when I think about pranayama, I think when I started in, in yoga in, in the, in the '90s, you know, I wanted to be the most flexible and the, you know, whatever the particular competitive male thing was. You know, that's how I got into it. I couldn't even touch my knees. And, uh, you know, I got all settled in, in yoga and pranayama meditation, and then this little voice in my head one day said, "You know what?
43:29.0 Let's stop doing postures. Let's stop doing asana, and let's just sit and do pranayam for 45 minutes a day and see what happens for six months." So six months later, I go back and I stretch my body, and I'm going twice as far as I could ever go before- I, I didn't sh- do one posture for six months. It was the pranayama that released my soft tissue, that lubricated my spine. It got my open mind, and I couldn't believe it. That's incredible. This is another thing. I just wish that there were more people doing studies on this stuff because you hear these anecdotes from so many people over and over, but until people see, see the data, you know, they don't, they
44:12.8 don't believe it. But if on a physiological level, of course it makes perfect sense. If you're really stretching and developing these, and, and loosening- Right ... and allowing a bunch of flexibility in these areas, guess what's gonna happen? You're gonna be able to stretch better. When, when you were looking into the ancient arts, uh, of pranayama, was there a particular text or sutra or something that really blew your mind? They were all saying the same stuff. You know, a lot of these are very mystical. It's hard to really get down well- ... what you're supposed to do. The, the breath is the ocean tied to the moon, which is tied to the eagle.
44:50.0 You're like, "Cool, but- ... what am I supposed to d- what am I supposed to do here?" So I found that the Chinese texts were... actually had very specific directions. Mm-hmm. And then they've got a bunch of mystical stuff, but ancient- Mm-hmm ... Chinese, the, the texts of the Tao, there's seven books, a- all- Right ... dedicated to breathing, 100%, 'cause breathing to them was a medicine. This, this was an, an important part of health, and if you did it incorrectly, specifically inhaling through the mouth, th- they were very clear, you're gonna die. You're gonna get sick, and you're gonna die. And if you breathe- Right ...
45:23.5 through the nose, you especially inhale through the nose and you practice breath holding and other- Mm-hmm ... practices, you're gonna live this long life. You're not gonna need medicine. Medicine nor grains, you know? So it's... and to me, so much of that is just supported by what we're finding out, what the new science is showing. It's... to me, it's fascinating that this stuff has been around for thousands of years. We've been writing, they've doing empirical studies for thousands of years. No one really believed it, and then you take people into a lab, hook them up with sensors. You look what's happening to their bodies. You're like, "Oh my God, maybe these guys were actually right." Well, yeah.
46:03.9 This stuff has been around for, for a long time, and so many people have, have shared their benefits of it. Wh- where I thought it got even more interesting was the stuff more on the, the outer limits of breathing. So we know the foundation of healthy breathing, but what happens when you really focus on this stuff? And I've found people that were able to do things that are considered medically impossible, that can heat themselves up, not suffer- Mm-hmm ... from frostbite, uh- Mm ... or hypothermia for hours at a time sitting in the snow. Impossible. Well, there they are. They're on video too. Right. You know?
46:37.9 The people who can straighten their spines. People can overcome autoimmune diseases, other diseases that we've been told are incurable. They're curing themselves with them, and they're doing it by focusing on their breath. Yeah. There, there's such just this rich treasure of experience and information, and, and going back to the roots and seeing the similarities of how modern science is finally grappling with this simple, simple thing that's already on board with us at, at birth, uh, you know, folks are either open to it or, you know, they're not, or, or they're kind of, you know, "I need to know more." But either way, we're still making progress.
47:16.0 For sure. And that, uh, if there's any silver lining to come out of this COVID thing, it's that people are a lot more aware of their breathing. When you've got a pandemic that affects the respiratory system, you learn what happens when you lose this ability to breathe, and we know that respiratory issues are directly correlated to the, uh, chance that you're gonna be suffering from more severe symptoms of, of COVID. So that's, that's very clear as well. So I don't think that it's a, it's a huge gap of, of logic for a lot of people, right? So you can breathe in a different way right now by various, various methods, and you can see with even instruments you have around the house.
47:57.1 If you've got a pulse oximeter, you can see what happens there. Mm. If you've got a blood pressure monitor, a lot of people have those, you can see what happens there. You can see what an immediate and transformative effect this has on your body after a couple minutes, and you imagine, "What would happen to me if I breathed this way for a couple of days or a couple of weeks?" And we're seeing what can happen. People can absolutely transform themselves just by breathing healthy. I, I totally agree. You know, if people just... I- if we could just feel a little bit better about ourselves, maybe we wouldn't be at each other's throat as much, uh, about
48:34.9 things where we might be separate right now. It, it really is something that's the master feeler. A- as we get to know ourselves a little bit better, you know, we kinda allow other things that might have disturbed us in the past not enter our, our, our mental world. Yeah, and it's just like that feedback loop we were talking about. Mm-hmm. When you feel anxious, when you feel really angry, take control of the breath, and you can actually change the way that you're gonna be able to process these, these feelings. And you can make much more logical decisions instead of making these very rash decisions, and that's really important.
49:11.2 And, uh, will it make us, you know, better as a species? Who knows? But it's not gonna hurt, okay? Right. Will, will this solve world problems? Probably not. Mm-hmm. But it certainly won't hurt your immediate outlook on, on those around you, those in y- your family, your friends. I think that it can help make you a, a better person. I really believe that. I totally am on board with you. You know, I think about, you know, like Einstein said, "No problem will be solved at the same level of consciousness that was created." You know, we butt our heads with ourselves interpersonally or with a family member or a coworker, uh, all the time.
49:48.0 And you know, and the breath is just this amazing tool that somewhere beyond our ego, new awarenesses come where we normally would get triggered or an old wound is activated. And next thing you know, the breath is showing you a whole new way to be with it, and it, it just kinda hits you right in the head. For sure, and I think anyone who's studied it or practice it has definitely had that experience a few times. Sometimes you feel that in a very significant way. If you're doing a kriya or if you're doing Wim Hof or, or whatever, you can have these really profound experiences.
50:22.9 I've, I've had a few of them, and, and most people who practice these have, have had the same thing. But you can also feel it on a much more subtle level by breathing through your nose, by breathing, um, and exhaling more than you're inhaling throughout the day, and noticing what a calming effect this has on you. So this is not a placebo effect. This is, this is science and it's basic physiology. How you breathe just affects how your body is gonna work and how your brain is gonna process things. Yeah, this is as real as it gets. You know, I just really love what you said about lengthening that exhale.
50:57.5 There's so many good things that occur to us inside from a physiological, psychological standpoint, but also outside in our external environment if we can just train our brain to stay with the issue to the completion of the exhale. It has such a profound effect on our self-confidence, our self-esteem. We hung in there with the moment, and then boom, there's another fresh breath coming in and you're ready to take on whatever that is. Uh, you know, this is something that I try to be very conscious of, um, when I'm not on the phone, when I'm not on interviews, but I've been trying to do this on interviews.
51:34.6 It doesn't, it doesn't work because then you end a, a phrase and then you're silent for a second, and the host is like, "Oh my God. Okay, he's done with that phrase," and they come in. So, so in context of that, you can do this around 99% of the time, but it will really confuse people if you're in a conversation and you're taking those pregnant pauses. You know, I think it... That's a great awareness for folks to understand that, you know, talking is mouth breathing, and we really need to streamline our message before we speak so that we're not talking any longer than we need to, number one, for our own health, but also know that who we're talking to has
52:17.1 an attention span of probably about five to 10 seconds per minute where they can really download the information, be congruent with you, and then make a choice and, and, and move into that paradigm. So when we think about, you know, really being grounded, I was out for- For a hike the other day in the Rocky Mountains, and I'm at about 8,000 feet and I'm nostril breathing, ocean sounding breath, little retentions, whatever I needed to keep my heart rate down, staying grounded. And then all of a sudden I, I hollered up to my wife a, a couple sentences. And just in a couple sentences I was out of breath, hyperventilating, and like a light went on and I, I couldn't believe it.
52:55.1 Just that little bit of mouth breathing. Yeah, when you're disrupting your pattern, uh, that, that can definitely happen. And to be clear, if, if you've got two people who are cognizant of their breathing and you're supposed to take in a breath through, through your nose, and as you're talking you're exhaling. But again, it's at that very end, taking a breath through your nose, it just doesn't, doesn't work in all situations. But if you're with someone else who's doing it, maybe that can work. I know a few people who do this, and I'll, I'll be honest, conversing with them is a little, little difficult 'cause I'm like, "Are you done with your...
53:29.6 with whatever you were saying? Is it my turn to talk?" And then, then they'll continue. So I think everything in balance is, is really the healthiest thing. Totally agree with you, and I think one of the things, folks, I wanna bring to their awareness is that our breathing creates boundaries. The inhale and exhale, the length of that allows psychological and emotional, physiological boundaries to occur in regard to how we're gonna interact with the moment. And when it's, it's th- these little short little breaths, our boundaries are very short. We're thin-skinned, we're exhausted, they're, they're, you know, we're all over the place. We've got a lot of great ideas but we can't get anything done, can't manifest it.
54:07.8 And when we can see that the breath... And watch how your mind works with the breath. Watch how your brain works with this breath. And these boundaries are non-negotiable. They're there to hold us true north in our authenticity. Yeah. That's, that's a beautiful way of looking at it, and just knowing that we have these boundaries set up but that doesn't mean we can't e- expand them- Yeah ... and expand our, our potential. And especially if you look at the people really on the, on the outside of this. Look at free divers, they're doing what's considered scientifically impossible. W- wind- Right ... surfing is considered scientifically...
54:43.5 You know, what's considered scientifically... Who, who, who dictated what's possible and what's not possible? Um, and it, it's a wonderful thing to explore your body and to use it as, as the tool, you know, to, to take us into this journey to, to get healthier and, and just to see where it can lead us. I think that we've sold ourselves, uh, short for, for the past few decades, and all these things that are considered impossible today, people were doing thousands of years ago. So I think that we need to recognize that there's a lot more we can do, there's a lot more that we're capable of.
55:16.8 It's funny when you think about the, the ancients and their breathing and how strong their immune system was. You know, they didn't have- Oh. Yeah. Yeah. It, it must've been. And we know that breathing directly impact, impacts your immune function. I mean, there is a direct link between these, between these things. Inflammation, if you're constantly mouth breathing, stressed out, you're gonna be inflamed, so. Right. So it's, it's... Uh, thi- this is just simple, simple biology. When you think about it, as, as soon as you improve respiration function you're gonna improve digestive function, your ability to eliminate what's in your gut. And in that, knowing that your immune system is a, is a function of 75 to 80% of what goes on in your belly, uh, you know, you think just breath, gut,
56:00.2 cardiovascular, neurological. It's really the master connector. For sure. It's, it's the thing that really ties everything together. And, and again, we, we can't control our liver function, our, our stomachs- Mm-hmm ... or our kidneys or our hearts. Mm-hmm. Well, some yogis can consciously control their heart without breathing. But when we take control of our breathing, we can influence all of these functions and we can really, uh, balance them to a state where they'll be able to work most efficiently, and, and the benefits of that are innumerable. Well, what's next, uh, for Mr. James Nestor here on Planet Earth? A lot of sleeping is next. Uh, some cough drops are next.
56:42.0 Um, I actually have another, against my will, uh, I have another book idea that's been brewing for a long time that the pieces of the puzzle are just starting to come into place now, but I can't even think about that while I'm still on this, this book tour thing and trying to get the word out about, about breathing. It's a tool everyone can use. It's free, it's available to everybody anytime. Well, y- I'm sure you don't have any idea, uh, the amount of folks that, that you've, that you've reached. And it's profound work, and so richly needed in this time of, uh, uncertainty let's say.
57:18.1 Oh, well, thank you very much. You know, the credit goes to these researchers. I am a journalist. I went into this field. I put together their stories, but these are people who have been slaving away for decades and decades in these institutions, and not a lot of people have been listening to them even though the science was very clear. So it's such a privilege to be able to tell their stories and to get their research out into the world, and find that people are having such a huge benefit from it. I mean, that, that to me is just the best thing, getting these letters of people who just after a couple weeks of shifting their breathing are showing huge gains, improvements in their health, and
57:55.6 I think we need that more now more than, than ever really. It, it's just magnificent to have this information out there to householders and laypeople who normally wouldn't be, have access to this type of research and information. And, you know, all I can say is, is that, that the more that you do this, the less you'll need to do physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to achieve your goals. It is almost counterintuitive in regard to how powerful this is. And if, you know, if you're used to running five miles a day, if you can do controlled pranayam, you're only gonna need to run three. Now, that might not be a big deal at 30, but when you're 60 your knees are gonna love you.
58:34.3 So it... Pranayam is the master of efficiency. This is actually a study that I'm proposing with a group right now, is to take two groups of people and to have one group exercise for X amount of time and have the other group just breathe. Mm-hmm. Just breathe in different ways, um, through, through and, and look at their... look what happens to their bodies. Yeah. Um, look at, at what improvements, if anything, between the... So we know exercise is very helpful to us to build muscle mass, build bone mass. All of that's great, but how much of it is just breathing in this different way, and what can that bring to us?
59:07.4 And especially for populations who can't go out and jog for two or three miles a day, um, can they breathe in a certain way and still have these benefits? We know that's true, we just don't know how much so. And so hopefully in the next year if this- they're able to get this study up and, uh, on its way, um, I'll come back on and, and report what happened. It'll be great. I led a study with athletes, uh, with Harvard Medical School about 20 years ago, and the results were that physiologically they dropped the 2K erg score 22 seconds in six weeks going from mouth breathing to nasal breathing.
59:44.0 But the amazing score was that these high school boys became gentlemen at home. They took the trash out. They got along with their mom and dad. They loved their sister again. They mowed the lawn. This blew the researchers away. Yeah. And, and those kinda studies, it's so, it's so fascinating because they've been there, right? No one's, no one's disclaimed them. It's yet no one's really paying attention to them. So, um, you know, perhaps this is the moment when just like nutrition, when we weren't paying attention to this stuff in the '70s and '80s, I mean, you can't imagine the crap I was eating when I was growing
60:19.3 up. Right. Now it seems like everyone's pretty clued in that, you know, high carb, high sugar food is really bad. I believe and, and I hope that this next wave is gonna include breathing in this equation 'cause as you've discovered, as I've discovered, as so many researchers have discovered, it's not a subtle thing that happens to your body when you really take control of it. It is profound, and this is one of the keys to your personal growth out there, ladies and gentlemen. I suggest this. This is something that we all need to wrap our consciousness around. Mr. Nestor's done an amazing job with this, and it'll change your life for the better.
60:56.1 And James, I wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart for your time today. I know you're extremely busy. Thank you for spending time with us today, and I wish you nothing but the best, my friend. Oh, thank you very much for having me, and thanks everyone for listening in. I've been seeing some questions come up here. Uh, we'll get to 'em next time, I, I promise. Thank you, buddy. Take care, everybody. Okay. Peace. Bye bye. Bye bye.