Ed Harrold and Dr. Erica Matluck explore healing, anxiety, self-doubt, and the human capacity to meet experience with greater awareness.
Ed Harrold with Dr. Erica Matluck. Originally published on YouTube February 4, 2025. Watch the original conversation on YouTube.
Ed Harrold and Dr. Erica Matluck explore healing, anxiety, self-doubt, and the human capacity to meet experience with greater awareness.
00:13.7 Welcome, everyone. I'm your host, Ed Harold, and I'm so excited to be with Erica today. I became aware of her work through Substack, and she's just the real deal. And when I looked on her website and I was able to get a good look at what she's offering humanity, I thought it'd be great to have a conversation with the doctor today. So welcome. Thank you, and thanks for inviting me. So when I, when I think about humanity today and the anxiety, the self-doubt, the fear, the mind virus, and I, I think about what you're offering humanity as a step, a solution, a growth opportunity. How did all this start to come to your mind?
01:05.5 Um, that's a great question. You know, the truth of the matter is I think it's been, you know, every step of my life has, has sort of led me to what it is that I do now and where I am, and how I look at health and, and people. Uh, you know, without like giving you too much information, I'm someone who was very drawn to this kind of work of, of healing and human exploration at a very young age. It was really inspired by my mother had cancer- Mm ... and she passed when I was 11. And so it's interesting because I always think of that as like sort of the foundational piece of that's held me to
01:55.7 really what your question was, was how did this all come into my mind? But when I was 11, it certainly wasn't a matter of the mind, right? It was absolutely a matter of the heart. And I think that that's an important piece because in this work, whether it's, you know, me supporting others or each one of us on our own personal journeys, I really do think it's like the, a matter of the heart and the why that really drives us. And when we keep coming back to that, it's a very different journey and a very different body of work than when it's, you know, all up in the mind.
02:38.7 Mm-hmm. And so for better or for worse, the loss of my mother- Mm ... um, it, it opened up a s- the spiritual dimension of myself at a time, you know, before I could really understand what that was or talk about it. But I felt a connection to my mother beyond the body that, you know, just couldn't really be explained as a child. It just was. Well, you know, being a doctor and, you know, when we look at classic Western medicine, it's classic reductionism. And then when we look to the Eastern model, it's more of a quantum model. Uh, and, and I think both have huge value, uh, in today's environment.
03:25.8 I totally agree with you, and I think that throughout my life in my own journey of, of sort of becoming where I am today, it's the, the pendulum has swung back and forth for me many, many times. I really like started the journey in more of the energetics or, you know, the quantum, uh, world. I'd... My first sort of introduction into healing was Reiki. Mm-hmm. And then, um, but I was pre-med in college, and then I went on to do my master's in nursing and my doctorate in naturopathic medicine, and I sort of got more and more conventional, and as I often described, less and less weird, until I reached
04:14.2 the limits of the conventional model and then I, I remembered everything that I had learned earlier and sort of let the pendulum swing back. And I think you're meeting me at a time in my life where like the pendulum's in... It's obviously not at a still point, but it's in like a pretty central range where I am... I consider myself a bridge. I am not a hater of Western medicine. Me too. I worked in the conventional system for a decade, and I've truly seen it improve quality of life. I've seen it save lives, families. I've seen it do incredible things. And I also think that that system, not for everyone, but for a lot of people, the illusion of certainty makes us feel safe, and I think
05:08.0 that that's a really important part of healing. Mm-hmm. And having worked in that system for, you know, a decade plus, more often than not, especially in this domain of like mystery illnesses or sort of unexplainable symptoms, I think the system is, is failing us more and more, and the system itself is becoming a limitation. And that's when I say, "Okay, like, let's get out of these, this prison- Mm-hmm ... and, um, you know, work with the breath. D- look to what the ancients knew. Look to yoga. Look to Eastern systems that like sort of orient around the concept of a personal constitution." Mm-hmm. And I think that, you know, it's this balancing act of, you know, the way that I work, it's always like let me take my medical knowledge and make sure
06:07.1 that I'm not missing anything scary or concerning. Um, and it, when we're in a safe zone, then when it comes to, okay, what can we do to like really push the needle on how someone is experiencing their life, let's look to some of these other modalities or systems or, or ways of working with, um, with the self to push the boundaries from like, you know, survival and functional medicine to like how do we really thrive in harmony with nature? Right. And, you know, Mother Nature's codes cannot be manipulated, you know? And these codes, these fractals of light, these electrons that are circadian biology and lowering our entropy, and all of these things that are kind of on the periphery
06:56.9 are kind of sliding a little bit towards the discussion. It's, it's exciting times. Yeah. You know, it's like the light has won, and we're here to just affirm the victory, and it's not gonna happen if you're stressed, there's anxiety, you can't sleep. It's not that it's personal, it's just this is a signal from your body that something is out of balance. Totally agree. I think the big challenge is like the culture that we live in, right? Because if... I, I left conventional medicine in, um, 2018, and the idea was I, I learned so much working in that system, and I got to a place where I felt like the system itself was actually limiting me from helping people.
07:41.4 So I went out into private practice and it's been amazing. You know, now I- Spend two hours with people, and we can actually, like, have the time to let the tears well up and excavate to the real roots, and not just sort of, you know, throw a supplement at something. But I also... One of the big challenges I find nowadays is, like, I really do know in my heart's heart, like, if I could tell this person to quit their job and go live in, you know, the canyons of Utah or the mountains of Colorado or the rainforests of Costa Rica, and, like, get back in the rhythms of the land and out of the rat
08:21.5 race, that they would heal. But, like, you know, people have kids. We have bills. We have mortgages. And so much of, like... I think the biggest challenge for me as a practitioner today is, like, how do you keep people well in a cultural system or a societal system that, like, makes it s- almost impossible to be well? Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's- You know, rai- raising awareness, self-awareness around our triggers, our traumas. Noticing our breath is disturbed when we're in a less than functional mental state, and just pausing at that moment and reconnecting, you know, with your spine, reconnecting with your thoracic diaphragm, activating your enteric nervous system, starting to down- you know, down regulate that sympathetic charge that I gotta fight somebody
09:16.3 or it's just not, you know, I'm not having any value. You know, it's just... You know, having, like, a three-step or a four-step process seems to be, uh, you know, people like that. Like, "Here's my process right now." Yeah. It's like three steps and I'm back. It's so much more than that, but, you know, I guess that stress is happening for our growth if we can stop taking it personal that the stressor is bigger and badder than we are. Yeah, I think that's a great way of looking at it, and also with the knowing that, like, we were designed to adapt to stress. Right. Evolution.
10:00.7 Don't devolve. And you made a really great point about nature that I love, which is, you know, at the end of the day, we're all nature. And I think two things are true. One is when we fight against, you know, nature's natural processes, there's always a cost, right? And I look at the biohacking industry, and I live in Austin, Texas, where there's just... Biohacking is really hot. Right. And I'm not against, you know, longevity and vitality, but I do think that, like, when you decide to try and hack or manipulate our biology, there is a cost. Mm-hmm. And so if you don't know what that cost is, you're sort of rolling the dice a little bit.
10:53.7 Right. Um, and then there's also the part of me that zooms out and just says, "Well, you know, this is all nature's plan, right?" Like, there's almost nothing we can do that isn't under the grand control of the great mystery. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes, you know, in these moments, I was speaking to a client yesterday who lives in LA and had, like, really just gotten settled there right before the fires, and now she's super concerned about the air quality and the health risks of living there. And, um, you know, without getting into all the details, I felt like it was one of these moments where I was like,
11:35.8 "I don't really think nature's will is for everyone to evacuate, you know, Los Angeles." And how do we sort of, like, both take care of ourselves and, and approach things with, like, a healthy, protective mind, and also sort of, like, trust, trust nature's plan- Mm-hmm ... and trust that, like, this is a safe, healthy world for humans to, to live and thrive and reproduce, or else we wouldn't be here. That's just a wonderful way to look at a challenging situation. And that it is, a challenging situation, isn't it? Well, we're built for challenge, and the idea is to control the challenge to the best of your ability while you're constantly taking baby steps, trying on new subpersonalities
12:30.8 as we self-correct on the fly. Like, you can't fix stress when you're not stressed, 'cause you think you're never gonna be stressed again. It's like, "Oh, I'm, I'm clear of stress. I healed that." Next thing you know, shoo, right down the rollercoaster. You're like, "What happened? Where's my heart?" You know? So, you know, for me, I, I see so much of this with folks. I see a breathing disorder which leads to a thyroid disorder, which leads to some sort of imbalance somewhere in these energy systems. Is, is that something you might be seeing? Um, yes, definitely. I think that I might, I might... My mind might sort of, like, use causality and association a little bit differently, but I very much am on the same page with you, with it,
13:19.9 like, being all connected. Mm-hmm. And on the one hand, sometimes I think it... We do need to sort of get to the root, right? So, like, if the root is the fact that you're not breathing, then, like, we gotta work on the breath. And sometimes I find with the work it's like you gotta, like, work a little bit on one thing and then work a little bit on another thing and work a little bit on another thing to kind of, like, loosen up that, like, the relationship of causality. Yeah. And I find... I do think that, like, one of my superpowers in my work is that I have this knack for, like, knowing where to start the process to move the needle
14:05.2 the most, but I also don't think that one needs to have that, you know, superpower. I think that sometimes the work is like, "Let me poke over here a little bit and see how much things move, and if it doesn't move, then, like, let's come at it from this approach." Mm-hmm. And sometimes I think it's just a matter of, like, you know, finding where the opening is for someone. Right. Because, you know, some people might come to me, and even on Zoom I can see right away that they're brea- they're not breathing. Right. But they need to trust me, and if I go right in for the breath and name that, sometimes that doesn't work, right?
14:49.4 Sometimes they're like, "I was coming to you for nutritional advice." And, you know, so sometimes I think in the dance of the therapeutic relationship, it's like needing... We need to sort of find where the opening is, and then that's just the way in as we sort of e- excavate to what is the thing that really needs to shift. Well, I love the way you take time to build trust with your client, because if there isn't t- trust, you know, nothing sustainable is going to grow. I totally agree, and I think that's one of the ways that the conventional medical system has, like, really failed itself, because
15:31.7 there's s- There's a therapeutic quality to the relationship of, you know, doctor-patient, nurse-patient, um, as is. Mm-hmm. And it's almost like if you took a provider that had very little skill, but you actually gave them the time to sit with someone and make sure that they felt listened to and validated and, um, you know, and not alone in the journey, we'd see health outcomes change. Right. But, you know, the system has just been so focused on, like, it's like a conveyor belt of getting people through- Mm ... and quickly, and it's so dehumanizing that nobody trusts providers anymore. Right. Right. You know, if, if you're a number, you're number one.
16:22.1 Right. Don't ever forget that, okay? And then we'll, then we'll go from there. Yeah. That's it. I, I love that. And I... You also said something earlier that I thought was... I really loved, which was, like, how you, you said, you know, "We can't work on stress if we're not stressed," right? It's hard to work on, like, your love life and relationships when you don't have a relationship as a canvas, and I think this is such a good point. And in medicine, where I think this has gone wrong is that we have this, the conventional system at least- Mm-hmm ... is this problem-based system, right?
17:02.3 Like, you really only go when something is wrong. Right. And un- you know, s- I, I've, I've learned a lot from, like, the way therapists do things- Mm-hmm ... and the way, you know, Chinese medical doctors do things, where it's like you... It's really, really helpful to see someone when they're well. Mm-hmm. And to be able to put some mental attention on what is working well in the system, because I think collectively we are so conditioned to just look at the problems- Hmm ... what's not working, and then, you know, before we know it, our health becomes a problem, and we're not recognizing that there are, you know, thousands of automatic
17:50.3 autonomic functions happening at every given moment- Hmm ... that are actually working miraculously perfect. Un- unbelievable what these things... We're just scratching the... This is unbelievable what's in here. Yes. It, it... After a while you're like, "Oh my God." Like, how does that make any sense? It's truly miraculous, the experience of being a human, and I think it's so, like, fun to, to geek out every once in a while with someone who, like, can pause and acknowledge it. Um, I remember when my son was born, my- Mm-hmm ... partner and I would just, like, sit there and watch him for hours. Yeah. Like- Look at that ...
18:34.3 how does this... Like, this thing just came out and it works. It's on automatic. It's rigged to work. And also sort of watching the newborn, like, you know, they're so connected to, like, consciousness and not even fully in the body yet. And, like, really watching that process happen, happen, I think, you know... I, I, I, like, want that experience and that, like, observation for everyone, because it really helps us remember just how miraculous it is to be in a body. Yeah. And the amazing theta brainwave pattern. The child is in this theta brainwave pattern, constantly downloading information at the en- from the environment. The immune system's responding to it based on the environment that it's in.
19:28.2 This automatic, autonomic, just theta brainwave pattern. I find it fascinating that, you know, so many adults, like, we're trying to get back into that brainwave pattern, but we can't because we're exhausted. Yeah. It's true. It's phenomenal. It's like, you know... And I... My son is three now, and I watch how, like, you know, kids wanna grow up, and then we just wanna get back there. You know, that, that safety that comes with, like, being held in your mother or a caretaker's arms, and knowing that you can trust that support so much that you can really relax. And how the body heals in that state is just- Yeah ...
20:17.7 phenomenal. It, it's amazing how the ego s- kinda hijacks us from the heart. You know, when you're younger, you can't wait to get older. And then when you're older, you can't wait to be... You wanna be younger. And it's one of the big distractions that I see so much with folks, where they just don't have the presence to be present. Yeah. It's like, "Okay, this is the now, and if I take care of this now, I think the next one's gonna be pretty good." Yeah. If I lose that now, the subconscious is gonna come over and, and project something from my old files. I mean, that's time travel, you know?
20:59.7 It r- We're doing it ... we're doing it already, and I th- I think it's funny, you know, when I think back to, you know, films like Back to the Future, and this idea that you needed, you know, a fancy car to time travel. Right. And, you know, I think about that a lot, just this idea that we need technology outside of ourselves to be able to do these things that, like, came with the technology of humanity. Yeah. And, you know, you and I both know at any given moment, like, we can close our eyes and we can go into a meditative state and we can visualize our
21:36.5 childhood selves and, like... And that's real, right? Like, the nervous system and the adrenals- Mm-hmm ... never really forget what that experience was like. Ah, it's so well said. And, you know, we are just such a data-filled information machine, but we're only getting, like, the tip of the iceberg. I mean, it... How much do you really wanna know? And, you know, and you're not gonna know it unless you have a stillness practice. Like, you've gotta shh to listen, 'cause you can't learn anything new when you're talking. Yeah. So... Go ahead. Go ahead. It's... Yeah, it's true. I think it's one of our, you know, current culture's biggest challenges, is just the slowing down, the being still, the finding silence,
22:26.1 you know? I even look at social media these days. I was, like, a real lover of Instagram when it was a place for writing, and then all of a sudden every time I open the app, it's like unless the sound on my phone is off, it's like this sensory attack of, you know, sounds and visuals and movement. And I think it's... You know, it gets harder and harder by the day to just, like, really find sensory protection or, you know, quiet. Well, and you have to pr- that is your responsibility to pr- you know, you came into this realm, and all you got, all you were given was a body.
23:09.2 Yeah. And you've gotta protect this thing like the temple on the hill. Yeah. And, you know, distraction is a big part of the game today. And when you go out into nature, you notice, you know, nature is the key. Yeah. And it talks to you in a language that's not English, it's not French, it's not Spanish, but you know exactly what she's saying, and it's the truth. And you begin to realize there's no ordinary moments in my life. Yeah. Everything is extraordinary. Wow, I'm special. I'm somebody. Or, you know, you don't feel left out, so to speak. I totally agree. I, like, one of my, my mantras is, like, you know, when I don't know what to do about anything, something, it's look to nature.
23:51.5 What would nature do? Good. Um, and you know, sometimes I can look and look and not find the answer, but I can just go be with a tree, and somehow after that I have more clarity. I feel like w- there's no new problems, right? Mm. We're just, like, learning how to solve them. Right. And, uh, you know, those that came before us and other forms of, of natural life, I think really have so much to teach us. Yeah. And geez, it's so much fun being the student. It just seems like exponentially there's these huge downloads of consciousness that are just blowing my mind recently. I also think we are in an interesting moment.
24:42.1 We're in a moment of receptivity and change and, uh, openness that feels pretty new to me. Mm-hmm. Having been in this field for over 10 years, I remember in, in 2012 when I would suggest to someone with anxiety a, a meditation practice or, you know, looking into stress management or breathwork, um, people would walk out of my office. Mm-hmm. People were offended. And this was in San Francisco, California, where like, you know, people were a little ahead of the curve. Right. And then a few years later, something started to change, and it was like everyone was interested in, um, alternatives to psych medications- Mm-hmm ...
25:33.7 meditation, mindfulness, compassion cultivation, and I think that that interest is sort of exponentially growing. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, when I look at your website, I could just stay on it for hours because there's just so many great opportunities. You know, if we could start at the physical level, and let's just start with the, the four quadrants. You know, we have this... We have to call it something, so we have this physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. Y- you know, and I think about the physical and just to simplify it, you know, we're in, most of us are in autonomic dysfunction, which is causing this overheating i- in the brain and the body,
26:17.5 which is causing acidity and inflammation. Uh, you know, when, when you're working with the body, uh, what are some of your favorite things to share with people? Um, when it comes to the body, I think there's, like, a few categories of favorite things. One category is kind of like the conversation we've been having, which is like, let's remember the great gift of the sensory experience, right? Mm. Because there are a lot of people out there who, who are really wanting to get out of the body, right? Mm. They're suffering in the body, and they're looking to spirituality for comfort. And so one of the things I love helping people find is, um, you know, where is the body working, and where is
27:05.3 their pleasure? Where is the sensation something that they want more of? I also really like working with food. Mm. Um, you know, in my background, I have a lot of tools in my toolkit. Yeah. And I will say to this day and age, like, food remains one of my favorite tools to work with when it comes to the physical body, because I think it, it's about so much more than food. Our relationships with food are very layered, right? From, like- Yeah ... how we experienced food as children, in families, in cultures, and then there's also these, like, I'm really interested in... Obviously I'm also a mom of a young kid.
27:55.0 I'm really interested in the ways that we train babies and children physiologically, and I'm really interested in the relationship between how we do that with foods and, you know, put kids into mealtimes or- Mm ... introduce foods, and then this pattern that I often see in adults, which is like- Mm ... I don't know what to eat. I don't know what makes me feel good or what doesn't make me feel good, and what energizes me, and you know, how I feel after this lunch versus this lunch. So I think food is a really, like, interesting bridge, actually, between the physical experience in the present and our
28:42.1 childhood, or something I like to call physiologic authenticity, which is like, how do I eat when I'm hungry? How do I, like, tell my yeses and my nos in, in the body? And I think food is, like, a really great way to, to sort of wake that up. Right. I love that. You know, it's always... Years ago, I began to practice, some mentor taught me, it is just to pause before you begin your meal and listen to the body and what it's deficient in. And if you can just take that moment, your body's gonna tell you immediately, without ego, exactly what it wants. Now, it's up to you to control the portion.
29:21.9 But listening to the body is the major connection around food. Um, yeah, and it's, you know, it's, in some ways it's a forgotten art, right? Like, a lot of people are not doing that. People are eating on the go. Um, of course our food quality and, you know, food processing and ma- manufacturing is, like, has changed so much that it's, it's a complex- Mm-hmm ... game, um, to, to take on this idea that you become what you eat, right? Yeah. Your physical form becomes what you eat. Right. And so choosing that wisely. Um, I also, like, in the physical realm, I, I really like looking at lab work.
30:11.9 I like the educational piece of the lab work, and I like thinking about lab work as, like, subconscious information. Yeah. Right? It's something going on in the body. The body is like, there's all this information in the body that we weren't aware of up here, and we can look at the blood, you know, or the urine or the- Mm-hmm ... saliva and we can learn new things about ourselves. So I think that's, that's kind of a fun part of the excavation. That's why you're great. So, you know, when you think about the body, it's hard for me to think about the body without thinking about emotions, without thinking about feeling, without
30:54.8 thinking about somatic. Uh, you know, when we move our body, there's a story there, and it's, you know, it's our story and it's sometimes great, somet- times needs improvement. But can you speak a little bit about how emotions and success and failure, pain and pleasure, love and non-love interacts with our physical selves? Yeah. I mean, the way that I think about it, and the way I sort of frame it for, for m- in my practice, is that both the emotional and the physical quadrants of self have this way of drawing us inward. Mm. I think it's w- went, you know, back to childhood and development, it's sort of like first we come into our bodies, right?
31:45.1 You, you watch that baby discover, "This is my hand, and what can I do with it?" And then we come into our emotions. Mm-hmm. And we need to use our emotions to communicate in the beginning, right? Before we, we have language. Mm-hmm. And so I think that, uh, knowing how to feel- Mm-hmm ... and how to use emotion to actually move energetic material or, um- Mm-hmm ... s- anything sort of through ourselves is an instinctual skill. Mm. We had it in the beginning. And I think what happens is as we get older, and of course it becomes less socially acceptable to have a temper tantrum in the
32:37.4 middle of a coffee shop or on a, you know, public transportation, we, we start, like, stuffing our emotions or just not expressing them. And then so rather than letting emotion move through us, we... It gets stuck. Mm-hmm. And, you know, with regard to the physical body, I think about this in two ways. One is that our emotional states are really just, you know, chemical messengers binding to receptors and bringing about a state that we feel, right? The dopamine hits, the oxytocin, the adrenaline. And those states are actually quite fleeting, right? If you look at, like, how long that dopamine molecule binds to a receptor and brings about a state that we feel.
33:27.0 You know, I think they, they estimate 90 seconds or two minutes or something. Mm-hmm. And, I mean, my son is the greatest teacher of this. Right. Right? He feels something big, and he screams, and he cries, and he stomps his feet, and he wails his arms into the air, and then he's laughing. Mm. And, like, that actually is emotion in its true form. Mm-hmm. But when we don't do that- Mm-hmm ... and we do what a lot of adults do, is we go to therapy, and we try and explain the emotion and talk about the emotion, the emotion doesn't move. So I think two things happen.
34:06.2 Mm. One is those emotions get trapped in our tissues, right? And we've all had this experience where, like, you go to a yoga class, and you hit some pose, and all of a sudden you start crying or laughing, right? Mm. Because, like, you're stretching out a connective tissue where some emotion is tightly bound into. Or I was a massage therapist for 10 years. I would have these moments where you hit a point on someone's body, and they like... They're like, "Oh my God, I just, like, remembered this thing that happened when I was a child," and they start crying. It's like it's in the tissues.
34:46.8 Yeah. Um, so I think there's, like, a, a real sort of call these days to do a little less of the talk therapy, where we have a tendency to just talk over the emotion, and do a little bit more, you know, movement, crying, laughing, feeling, breathing. Mm-hmm. Right? You probably s- have seen this all the time where, like, someone wells up with emotion, and they just stop breathing, right? They just freeze. Right. That's beaut- That's like a missed healing opportunity, right? So if you can even like... You know, ideally, you can sort of let the tears come and have the experience of emoting in a safe place.
35:35.6 But even if we can't do that, even just, like, keeping the breath moving. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Fan that. It's- Keep going ... back to nature. You know, we look to nature. A tree never stops moving. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The movement really never stops, and I think that's how we, like, circulate, and we move energy, and we don't get stuck. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's a great awareness. And I don't think we're bad at doing that with our thoughts, right? Like, we're good at letting the monkey mind go and thinking. Um, what we're not great at doing, you know, as adults in these days, is, like, really feeling and emoting.
36:27.5 And we can make the argument that a lot of us are, like, not really good at moving the body, right? Sedentary lifestyle is, like, a huge, um, determinant of, of disease and a huge cause of illness. Yeah. And when we do move the body, it's probably something that I've become accustomed to. You know, I go for a run- Right ... or I lift weights, you know? Or, you know... That's why yoga is such a great communicator because it puts our connective tissue against our body weight and gravity with different breathing, and it miss... It doesn't miss anything, and everything comes up on its own time.
37:05.0 Everything is trying to gift you with you if you'll just allow it. I mean, speaking of technology, like, yoga is a perfect technology. Oh. And in the West, we've- Yeah ... we've kind of, of course, tried to reduce it to just the asana part- Right ... and turn it into exercise and, um, you know, so much is missed. Therapeutic yoga, there's nothing that escapes your consciousness. You know, the level of presence that you have there, you welcome it all home. You, you know, you welcome it all. Uh, you know, whether you're laughing or crying, your gut is creating the same biology, and it's a release mechanism.
37:47.4 Yeah. And also, you know, it honors this idea that there's a relationship between form and function. Yeah. And I think that that's like, it's just so important because, you know, if I put myself in a fetal position, it impacts every organ system of my body, right? Right. The function. Right. Um, we forget about these things. Recently, I've been, like, very interested in the relationship between people wearing tight pants, tight waistbands, and gut issues. And when you think about it, it makes so much sense, right? Right. If you put all this pressure against- Right ... your intestines, like, of course the function is going to be impaired.
38:36.3 Your diaphragm can't move down. So you can only chest breathe and stimulate sympathetic activity. And therefore you can't digest, right? So, uh, uh- There it all goes. It's- 'Cause these simple things, you know, it's like speak- coming back to nature, even something as simple as, like, putting clothing on these perfect bodies impacts our biological function. Yeah. And so when you start to, like, look at it under a microscope like that, you start to realize how much impact we can have with very subtle changes. Right. Right. Fascinating. Fa- I could talk about the... So let's talk about the mental world, and let's see if we can weave in the spiritual mind, the spiritual
39:31.3 mindset, the spiritual awareness. I mean, for me, where the spiritual quadrant sort of meets the mental quadrant is in your attention, right? Yes. And you mentioned something earlier, you know, I, I think about, like, our attention as, like, the, the most valuable currency today, right? And the way I think about these two quadrants of ourselves, like, slightly different- Mm ... is that the spiritual quadrant is like the quantum, right? And where we put our, I like to call it intention here- Mm ... makes that outcome or that goal more likely than all the others, right? Because that's- Yeah ... the way, you know, the, the quantum world works.
40:19.8 All the potentials, all the possibilities exist, but where we put our attention becomes a more likely outcome. So I think about this spiritual quadrant of health as, as really integral to health because it's where we decide, what does healing look like for me? Like, where do I actually wanna go? Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, there's, it, everything's possible, right? Mm-hmm. So there's no one who thinks rationally about diagnosis and treatment in the spiritual quadrant to tell me that's impossible, right? This is where I get to dream big. Yeah. This is also where, for me, the unknown lives. Mm. And why I think that's important to name is because in conventional medicine, we function under this illusion of certainty or this illusion
41:15.4 that evidence-based medicine knows everything. And that works until it doesn't. Yeah. Uh, but when it doesn't, our providers, our practitioners have no skills or capacity to be with someone in the unknown, and this causes mental illness, right? This is why, you know, someone who's been to the Mayo Clinics and the Cleveland Clinics and, you know, worked with all the best experts, and they still don't have a diagnosis, they end up on an antidepressant or an anti-anxiety medication because it's scary to be told by the best of the best that they don't know what's wrong with you. Yes. And to me, that's a deficit in, like, how we manage the spiritual quadrant of health.
42:07.0 The mind works very hard to keep us feeling safe, right? And it does that through certainty. So the mind loves evidence-based medicine, right? Let me look at all the datas, all the studies. Mm-hmm. Let me craft an argument as to why this is the best decision. And so I think, you know, when you talked about, like, weaving the spiritual mind, the spiritual and the mental together, I think about those two, like, they work so well together when we can train the mind to be a servant of the heart- Yes ... of the intuition. But when the mind is fixated on using the data or rational thought to go in one direction, and the intuition
43:00.3 or the heart wants to go in another direction, we get stuck. Right. Right. Hey, I'm all for PubMed. I'm, I'm all for peer review. There's noth- there's nothing wrong with that, but it works for a very small percentage of the population. Smaller than I'd like to see. Yeah, and it's, it's all sort of like, you know, take it with a grain of salt, right? Because, um, there's... Like, it's great to see data. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, I remember when I worked in conventional medicine, I was often, like, the person that you come to when you don't fit in the majority, right? So, like, my colleagues would tell me, like, "Yeah, of course I prescribe a Cipro for a UTI.
43:54.3 I do it, you know, multiple times a day." But when the patient in front of you is that rare, you know, less than .1% that experienced, like, this rare tendinopathy and from taking Cipro, and it's ruined their life, and nine years later they're in your office unable to find a path back to wellbeing, you think twice about prescribing that Cipro ever again. Right. And I think, you know, this is the difference between, like, a public health official and a clinician, and I think it's really sad when we start losing clinicians to public health because clinical medicine is an art. Mm-hmm. And it really needs to be y- you need to be moved by and transformed by every person that sits across from you
44:52.1 because they're changing your perspective on the tools. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not listening to that and you're just going back to the data and saying, "Well, this works 99.9% of the time, therefore I'm gonna just always default to that," like, you completely lose the art of medicine. Exactly. So one of the great things you offer is you offer the awareness, the science, the application of the chakra system, which very old medicine. It's, uh, kind of a reflection of our glands and, uh, our hormones and, uh, would you care to speak a little bit about chakra healing? I feel like you cued me up for this really well, 'cause a lot of the time I feel like I have to give a lot of background before I jump
45:50.7 into where the chakras live in my understanding of, of health and wellbeing. But I feel like you gave me a really good opening because I almost see the chakras as, like, these windows between the seen and the unseen- Mm ... or, like, the physical and the metaphysical, or the sensory and the extrasensory realms. And I see that sort of happening o- through the communication between the nervous system and the endocrine system. Mm. Right? And the n- the nervous system obviously is so sensitive, right? It can pick up cues about our sense of safety or s- Threats that are beyond our s- five senses, right? Like, we've all been in a situation where you feel a vibe, um, or you feel unsafe and you don't know why.
46:48.7 Um, and that's how sensitive the nervous system is. And then of course that's translated through nervous tissue to every organ system in the body, and we prepare to fight, flight, or freeze or, you know, we relax and we prepare to feed and breed and enjoy the finer things in life. And then that's also translated by the endocrine system into chemistry where we get those, you know, whether it's the adrenaline or the oxytocin or the dopamine, and there are receptors for those chemical messengers- Mm-hmm ... on, on organ- throughout, throughout our body as well. So I like to name those systems for the skeptics, right, who hear me say chakra and they're like, "Oh, that's too woo woo."
47:41.5 Um, because when you look at where the chakras are sort of superimposed on the body, they, they correlate with nervous tissue- Mm-hmm ... like large plexuses of nerves, and endocrine organs or endocrine glands. Right. And so the way I think about it is like if the word chakra is too woo for you, great, let's throw it out the window, but let's talk about the fact- That's right ... that there are these points on our body or around our body where I think it's very likely that our sensory perception is more sensitive, and we can perceive beyond, you know, the sensory realms. And so information is coming in- Mm-hmm ...
48:35.8 in these different parts of the, the body or parts of let's call it the subtle body or the energy field. And I like to think about that as sort of like seven different perspectives on self, right? Wow. So seven different perspectives- Great ... on health, seven different perspectives on the world around us, our relationships. And so I use the chakra system a lot as sort of, it's like an invisible framework that the material body and the material world sits upon. And I, I've spent a lot of time sort of mapping out some theories I had, right? Mm-hmm. Because I was... When I was working in medicine, I was already a Reiki master and a yogi, so I already had a lot of awareness and ideas
49:29.8 about like, you know, the chakras and, and how imbalances or, or energetic states in these different chakras could maybe play out as diagnoses or, you know, different types of symptoms and ailments. And the cool thing about working in conventional medicine and not having a lot of time with people is you see a really high volume. So I felt like I got a really good platform to, to observe and test some of these theories and, uh, to a place where I feel like I've, I've really mapped out different themes of imbalance and how they might sort of show up physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Mm-hmm. And I was actually just writing about this for Substack.
50:26.6 It's, it's, it's gonna come later this week, but this idea that, you know, what is root cause medicine? And I think out in, in the world of integrative medicine, I see a lot of people talking about, you know, diet as the root cause of, of disease or, um, sedentary lifestyle or emotions, and I really kinda wanna push back on that and say that like what I think is there are themes of dysfunction. Mm-hmm. And the theme will weave its way- Mm-hmm ... through the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual experience, and the theme will impact why we eat what we eat. Mm-hmm. The theme will impact why I'm so disconnected from my body that I don't know what foods work for me and what foods don't.
51:21.7 And so I, I see the root cause of illness as like kind of these unconscious themes that are driving us, and we put Band-Aids on it when we go to the doctor for our, you know, physical health, and then it moves right over into the mental or the emotional quadrant. Mm-hmm. And we go to our therapist and we sort of like... I don't like to call therapy as like Band-Aid work, but, but we stay in those dimensions of ourselves, and then we don't realize that we're dealing with the same thing in our lives and our relationships, um, and we're j- we just end up chasing it- Mm-hmm ...
52:07.2 through the different quadrants of self because we haven't figured out like, oh, the theme, the theme that like I don't feel safe in my body. Mm-hmm. The theme of like I can't sit with myself for long enough to actually see what reality is. I'm constantly running away, right? What the Buddhists would call the craving and aversion cycle, right? Right. And how like we, when we're stuck in that cycle, it, you know, we're throwing pills and treatments at things so fast we don't even know if they worked. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, let alone like not feeling our emotions, reacting to them, you know, settling for relationships or job opportunities
52:54.1 that aren't right because sitting with the discomfort of not knowing is too uncomfortable. Nah. Well, Dr. Erika, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today. I could talk to you f- I gotta have you back. There's so many things that we could discuss to help humanity. Uh, in the show notes, I'll have all the ways people can reach you a- and work with you and all the various ways that you do it. Is... Just before we s- sign off, what's the website, uh, and how do people get ahold of you? My website is www.experience7senses.com, so seven is written out. Um, and it's a reference to the seven chakras.
53:37.2 And, uh, I'm the same handle on Instagram, experience7senses. And, uh, also Substack. My Substack is called Becoming Whole. Mm-hmm. That's where I, I spend more of my media time these days over there. Thank you so much for having me. I, I really appreciate it and have loved the conversation, and love what you're doing here with this show. Dude, you're a legend. I mean, it- it's great talking to you. You're, you're world-class, and I think the world needs a little bit more of Dr. Erika. So thank you so much, and I look forward to connecting with you soon. Thank you. All right, love. And so I, I see the root cause of illness as like kind of these unconscious themes that are driving us,
51:31.8 and we put Band-Aids on it when we go to the doctor for our, you know, physical health, and then it moves right over into the mental or the emotional quadrant. Mm-hmm. And we go to our therapist and we sort of like... I don't like to call therapy as like Band-Aid work, but, but we stay in those dimensions of ourselves, and then we don't realize that we're dealing with the same thing in our lives and our relationships, um, and we're j- we just end up chasing it- Mm-hmm ... through the different quadrants of self because we haven't figured out like, oh, the theme, the theme that like I don't feel safe in my body.
52:17.0 Mm-hmm. The theme of like I can't sit with myself for long enough to actually see what reality is. I'm constantly running away, right? What the Buddhists would call the craving and aversion cycle, right? Right. And how like we, when we're stuck in that cycle, it, you know, we're throwing pills and treatments at things so fast we don't even know if they worked. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, let alone like not feeling our emotions, reacting to them, you know, settling for relationships or job opportunities that aren't right because sitting with the discomfort of not knowing is too uncomfortable. Nah. Well, Dr. Erika, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today.
53:06.9 I could talk to you f- I gotta have you back. There's so many things that we could discuss to help humanity. Uh, in the show notes, I'll have all the ways people can reach you a- and work with you and all the various ways that you do it. Is... Just before we s- sign off, what's the website, uh, and how do people get ahold of you? My website is www.experience7senses.com, so seven is written out. Um, and it's a reference to the seven chakras. And, uh, I'm the same handle on Instagram, experience7senses. And, uh, also Substack. My Substack is called Becoming Whole. Mm-hmm. That's where I, I spend more of my media time these days over there.
53:53.2 Thank you so much for having me. I, I really appreciate it and have loved the conversation, and love what you're doing here with this show. Dude, you're a legend. I mean, it- it's great talking to you. You're, you're world-class, and I think the world needs a little bit more of Dr. Erika. So thank you so much, and I look forward to connecting with you soon. Thank you. All right, love.